This is one of the great psychological/moral delusions of our time. I’ve asked hundreds of gay people in my audiences for years whether or not they chose to be gay, and every one of them has given me the same answer. This is a very controversial subject in America, although it shouldn’t be. Watch this short video I shot in London, England this morning and I’ll look forward to your comments. Steve Siebold (3:50)
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the bible says to not judged bcz you will be judged too , it means that except for god, nobody should judge anybody , but the bible also says to discriminate homosexuality , that it is an abomination. i know it’s brutal but you can’t call someone a bigot because he believes that . in fact many pro gay people who will smile to your face think exactly that but will not resort to hurt your feeling and tell you their exact thoughts about your actions, most of the time it’s because they love you. but i have to say , i really wonder why the bible, God is cursing homosexuality so much , how is it supposed to affect all of us ?
Hi, How come my comments didn’t get posted yet?
Mohammed, I was referring to your following statement:
“I looked a little into that question about hermaphrodite, what i have learned is that they normally have one organ that is actually useable. This would allow them to identify themselves as to whether they should be a male or female. Therefore they should get a surgery to remove the other part (God knows best).”
If God, who “knows best,” made them hermaphrodite, then who are you to say they “should get a surgery to remove the other part” that isn’t “usable?” And, why should they have to identify as either male or female? According to whom?
Also, your whole argument about whether the Qur’an (or Bible) is actually God’s (Allah’s) words reminds me of those religious zealots who smugly like to say, “God said it. I believe it. That settles it!” as though they’ve made a point. Just because you believe something doesn’t make it true. For instance, for hundreds of years, people believed that the sun and planets revolved around the earth and even condemned Copernicus and Galileo for the crime of heresy for proclaiming that all the planets revolve around the sun.
One of Copernicus’ accusers, Melancthon, even used scripture as his argument against him, concluding that “It is the part of a good mind to accept the truth as revealed by God and to obey it.” John Calvin, another accuser, also asked, “Who will venture to place the authority of Copernicus above that of the Holy Spirit?” We now know that what these “learned” men were incorrect.
If they were wrong, and they believed they knew what God said, is there a possibility that you could also be wrong in your belief of what is (or isn’t) God’s word?
Hey Linda, what do you find contradictory? I need specifics….
Mohammad,
I have to agree with Sunshine that your argument about hermaphrodites is contradictory.
Sunshine,
Being gay is no more a “hormonal defect” than being left-handed, blond, heterosexual, or any other trait. Just because someone is different than the so-called “norm” doesn’t mean there is something wrong (defective) about them.
Steve,
Please forgive me for giving the wrong implication. I will more carefully evaluate my statements before I hit “send” in the future.
I obviously misunderstood your argument. I thought you were saying “I did not choose to be homosexual” implies “Homosexuality is a normal state of life.” This is clearly a deductive fallacy as many examples exist where “I did not choose X for my life” does necessarily imply “X is a normal state of life.” Thus my insistence that such an assertion adds nothing to the debate. And my insistence on bringing it to your attention.
We seem to be talking past one another here. I’m sorry for my part in that. I stopped listening to the talking heads and the political pundits on both sides when I got tired of ridiculous assumptions leading to false conclusions proving the other side evil/stupid. I started seeing that trend happening here in this discussion and tried to call attention to it. I did it poorly. I’ll be more precise in the future.
The bottom line is that we fundamentally agree.
Discrimination is wrong.
Thanks for the education in humility. I’ll be back.
Steve,
I didn’t say homosexuality was a disorder. Evidently I did not express myself clearly:
All I meant to say was that your argument carries no weight because the same can be said for many disorders and other uncomfortable (but normal) facts of life.
Your premise must support your conclusion.
Whether or not I choose my lot in life says nothing about whether or not my particular pain is a disorder or a normal fact of life. It lends no credence to the discussion of whether or not same-sex attraction is a disorder. The same can be said for many other attributes of life – painful or not. The statement is, by definition, NOT a premise. You can conclude NOTHING from that statement.
It is, in fact, an emotional argument that is precisely what you are trying to get us past in this discussion.
The animal kingdom point is a valid argument. We can look at the facts and make conclusions from them. There are a number of excellent points that we can debate. Whether or not I got to choose my particular flavor of suffering is not.
I want to see the end of discrimination as much as you. But dumbing things down serves no one and distracts from the real discussion.
Scott,
You didn’t have to say it was a disorder. It’s implied in your statement. And my original argument was that it was a delusion that gay people chose to be gay. The reason it matters is because people justify their discrimination against gays by saying they have chosen this as a lifestyle. You say your premise must support your conclusion, which is backwards. What you may have meant to say was your conclusion must support your premise, which mine does. How can you lash out against someone who was born with a predispostion? The premise is gays are born gay. The conclusion is discriminating against someone for being born with a different sexual predisposition is wrong. This conclusion supports the premise. You presented it backwards, which won’t work. It’s a common mistake. As far as dumbing things down goes, thats not what I’m doing. Must things in life (in my opinion) can be broken down to simple ideas. There’s no need to make simple things complicated. If Einstein can explain the theory of relativity so an 8th grader can understand it, we can explain most of the concepts to which we apply critical thinking in simple terms. we do this with companies every day. It works. Thanks for your comments, Scott. I’ll give you the last word.
I’ve grown pretty tired of this particular debate, but I do get worked up over facile arguments presented as “world class thinking” and “simple logic.”
You have given us a clear example of a simple deductive fallacy (see http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/): “Homosexuals don’t choose their sexual orientation, therefore it must be perfectly normal.”
I’ve asked people from my twelve step groups over the years, and no one has ever said that they chose to be an alcoholic. I’ve never met a person with ADD that chose a life of distraction and destructive habits. The same goes for compulsive gamblers, kleptomaniacs, bulimics, the color blind, etc.
Why are these considered “disorders” to be overcome while being attracted to a person of the same sex is not? Your premise does not prove your conclusion.
Scott,
What makes you think being gay is a disorder? Why would you compare being gay to being an alcoholic? Homosexuality exists all throughout the animal kingdom. And it represents nearly 10% of the population.
What I’ve done is ask gay people if they chose to be gay. No one has ever said yes. Do heterosexuals choose to be heterosexual? I’ve never heard anyone say so. The point of this post is to let all these delusional judgements go and welcome this minority as an equal. Just like we have done with women, blacks, and every other minority Americans have discriminated against and abused over the years.
Hey Steve,
If God didn’t tell me a purpose of life, I will be lost. The best I would come up with is what most people do, to be successful, rich, have a great family etc.
But the problem is these things don’t bring you true happiness. The reason is because nothing is stable. You can end losing anything at anytime.
You could be rich one moment and dead broke the next, you can have an amazing family, and next thing you know, someone dies.
A person could work his entire life and he could end up losing everything and have nothing to show for it. It happens daily. Where did his hours go? What was the point?
These questions make you think deeper and they lead you to God.
God is always there, you might end up losing everything but he is still there.
You know Steve, as a kid I was taught that you should love God more than anything. As i grew up I started thinking about it. I was thinking why should I love God. I can understand why I love other people but why God.
Was it just a rule that I had to follow or was there wisdom behind it. As I started thinking about it, it was crystal clear why you should love God. He is always there, he knows whats going on more than you know. Are connections with other humans have a breaking point. With God there is no breaking point. Even a mother and her child will have a breaking point. Every human has it. There is something you can do that will even turn the one that loves you the most against you. We have a breaking point. But God is not human, he has no such thing. You can be the worst person on the face of the planet, and if you turn to God in SINCERE REPENTANCE, he will forgive you because he is the MOST FORGIVING.
Example: Say if you were accused of a crime you didn’t commit, and say people plotted fake evidence against you and all that, and you went behind bars. You have lost your reputation, family don’t believe you, everyone is against you, but God knows the truth. If he willed, he can change everyone’s minds. Everything is in his control, we just need to trust him and pray to him.
Basically I will be depressed and lost without knowing my purpose in life. Without God telling me my purpose in life, it would be the same as most people, and I will end up being depressed. Trust me I know. Many people act happy, they are not, it is a MASK. Stats even prove it.
I discovered the secret to true happiness, it is also mentioned in the Holy Qur’an, and I haven’t anything that could make me happier….this is the core secret of Happiness.
“… Only in the remembrance of Allah can the heart find peace.” (Qur’an, 13:28)
I promise you there is no other way. Ask me people who already have what you have, they will tell you there is something missing. I spent my life searching for happiness, trust me this is it. This is why barely anyone finds happiness, it is because they don’t apply this secret.
I actually created a new blog, I am gonna share my views on true happiness. I hope you Steve and everyone else could follow it, hopefully it could be beneficial. Even if you don’t agree, you can still learn.
http://www.ifoundtruehappiness.com
(I am going by my pen name Max on it)…you can still call me Mohammad. I just hope it benefits people, because deep down we are chasing happiness. All the fancy cars, big mansions, all those things we want are a mask, there is something deep down that we want and that is happiness.
Hey Sunshine, I have noticed you and some others think or act like Faith and this World are two different things and shouldn’t go together. This can’t be further from the truth and I will explain why. The reason I asked you those 3 questions was because it would answer the things you have just asked me. Now I will give you the answers to those 3 questions and show you how it answers thine things you have asked.
What is the purpose of Life?
Now many people have different answers, logically speaking there could be one Truth. Before I tell you the actual purpose of life, let me talk about the myths.
1) Some people think the purpose of life is to have fun, if that is the case, then why are many people in this world dying young and never had a chance at having FUN? Kids dying from hunger, babies dying, etc.
Since everyone didn’t get an equal chance, therefore having FUN can’t be the actual PURPOSE of LIFE
2) Some people think you create your purpose in life, this is half true and let me explain.
E.g. If you take a paper cup or glass, and you make it into a paper toy (you created the purpose), but the ACTUAL purpose of the paper cup or glass was to drink from it, not make a toy.
In the same way in this world, all the careers or things you are doing, (you are creating the purpose), but that is not the ACTUAL purpose of Life
What if a person made so much and all that, and then ends up losing it all at the end, what was the point? (many people do)….so that means he basically wasted his whole life collecting everything and the end had nothing to show for it. This shows that there must be something deeper, something more.
3) Some people think Life has no purpose…these people don’t take the time to think. If you look around you, everything serves a purpose, the question should be, what doesn’t serve a purpose, the computer, the bed, the furniture etc. Everything has a purpose. How can the most complex beings on the planet not have a purpose?
So what is the purpose? Only God could answer it. Because every other keeps coming up short. So the answer that God gives should make logical sense.
Here are a few verses from the Holy Qur’an…I want you to actually think of them instead of just pushing them away, even if you don’t believe in it. In reality there so much logic behind and makes complete sense. So please just give it a try and be SINCERE (cuz that is the main quality that a person needs to have in order to find the truth)
I only created jinn and man to worship Me. (Holy Qur’an – Surat adh-Dhariyat, 56)
We did not create heaven and earth and everything in between them as a game. If We had desired to have some amusement, We would have derived it from Our Presence, but We did not do that. (Holy Qur’an, 21:16-17)
We made everything on the earth adornment for it so that We could test them to see whose actions are the best. (Holy Qur’an, 18:7)
You can see that we do have a purpose and the purpose is who is best in MORAL DEEDS. And we should be doing Good deeds that God has told us too not for other people but only for God and no one else. Not so people could praise you for how good you are or anything like that. All your good deeds should be done solely for the Almighty God.
2) Why do you die?
Every self will taste death. You will be paid your wages in full on the Day of Rising. Anyone who is distanced from the Fire and admitted to the Garden has triumphed. The life of this world is just the enjoyment of delusion. (Holy Qur’an – Surah Al ‘Imran: 185)
This clears it up, this life is a test, and your purpose is to be the try to perfect your moral character. When you die, you will be born again for the Day of Judgement, and that is when true JUSTICE will be served. People who followed God by living with his commandments will hopefully get paradise, and people who didn’t, well you know, Hell.
Now here is an interesting thing, unlike some other faiths, no one knows if he will get paradise or not. We hope to attain it by the Mercy of God, no one can say he is perfect enough to get it. But God wants us to do the best we can, that what he wants. If we do our best, then Inshallah (God-Willing) he will grant us paradise. But there is always a fear of Hell too, and we need to have this fear, it helps make people better. If you don’t fear God, you can do any immoral deeds, that is why God urges us to love him, to fear him, to respect him, to have hope in him etc. You should call on God with a balance of hope and fear. Makes total sense.
3) Why do we have Problems?
This will answer the question you had, thinking did God make mistakes.
Before I start, many people have tried to answer this question. Many Philosophers, and you know what the best answer they could come up with? The best answer was something like this….”This is Life”….”Or that is how it is”………this is not a satisfying answer.
God answers this. Read this carefully.
And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the patient, Who says, when afflicted with calamity: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return”: They are those on whom (descend) Blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance. (Holy Qur’an – Al-Baqarah 2:155-157)
God is telling you, your going to have problems in life. Here is more verses. Please read carefully and think about it, even if you don’t believe it,(the question I have is what if they were true?)
Do people imagine that they will be left to say, ‘We believe,’ and will not be tested? We tested those before them so that Allah would know the truthful and would know the liars. (Qur’an, 29:2-3)
You will be tested in your wealth and in yourselves and you will hear many abusive words from those given the Book before you and from those who are idolaters. But if you are steadfast and guard against evil, that is the most resolute course to take. (Qur’an, 3:186)
So God is telling you why you have problems. When you have a problem your true colors are revealed.
Example: If a person is rich, he would have no need to STEAL, but if he was poor and hungry (problems), then he is really being tested, would he STEAL?
Everyone is TESTED, Rich people are tested..Would they give money to help others? Would they really be generous for the sake of God or for the praise of people?
This answers your question. God doesn’t make mistakes. This world is not paradise, nor is it hell. It is a mixture of both. People are born disabled, and some become disabled later on in life. Some are born with diseases, some get them after. Same thing with Hermaphrodites. They are being tested.. are they still grateful to God, are they blaming God, do they still follow the commandments after the problems that have come.
It is in your problems your true colors are revealed. This world is a mixture of paradise and hell, morality and immorality, Good and Evil.
It is was designed purposely….to test you, to see who strives to be Righteous and who fails. And who could teach you how to be Righteous than the one that created you.
O ye people! Adore your Guardian-Lord, who created you and those who came before you, that ye may have the chance to learn righteousness. (Holy Qur’an 2:21)
If you have any more questions, please ask.
Take Care,
Mohammad,
If there was no God to tell you the purpsose of life, what conclusion would arrive at through your own independent thinking?
Mohammad, you are saying that God made someone with both female and male parts and then also gave them the ability to know that they must get one of those parts (because it is wrong) surgically removed. But if God makes no mistakes then how is it possible that that part is not supposed to be there? You do realize that these types of surgeries have not existed for long, very unlikely they have been around for more than 100 years and that is a generous estimation. So, what did people do before then? I do not see at all how this explanation makes any sense. In fact, this is the same answer that I was given before that made no sense at all. You were born perfect but then you really weren’t born perfect because you have to get something surgically removed? So does this mean that people who were born with only 1 anatomy and feel deep within their soul that this anatomy is the wrong one and so they get a sex change because God knows best and he gave them the knowledge that they should get their part removed and turned into the correct part with surgery? With this logic, they were not born perfect in God’s eye if they have to turn around and get something surgically removed. This is just some random answer that someone came up with because they could not think of a better explanation and quite frankly, it is close to being one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.
That being said, I want you to realize that Neuroplasticity applies to you as well.
I have answers to your questions Mohammad but I feel like this is going to be a circular and no-end discussion where we will both walk away feeling exactly the same way we do about our beliefs as we do currently. I am not going to try and convince you that your faith is wrong, I respect you and your faith. I know you feel passionately about it and that you are excited to share how much you know about it with people and make them believers and I understand that. There are things in my life that I know are right without a doubt (not pertaining to religion) and I sometimes want to share this information with the world because it can save lives. But I have to come to realize that I can only help those who want to be helped and not everyone is going to believe me, wants to listen to what I have to say or change their ways to help themselves. Like I said earlier, a religious debate is not what I am interested in at all. It is a circular debate and we would just continue to go back and forth and neither one of us would feel any differently in the end.
Best regards my friend.
Sunshine,
What appears to be a circular debate may actually be causing all of us to think. Don’t be so sure your words (and Mohammad’s) aren’t making an impact. We all want to hear your thoughts. Even if we disagree, we can all learn from one another. Thanks for your comments.
Hey Sunshine,
I looked a little into that question about hermaphrodite, what i have learned is that they normally have one organ that is actually useable. This would allow them to identify themselves as to whether they should be a male or female.Therefore they should get a surgery to remove the other part (God knows best).
I care more about what is RIGHT instead of who is RIGHT.
You said “I will not be convinced otherwise because I have already put years of thought into learning about this and coming to this conclusion on my own.”
Doesn’t that mean that you have already made a decision based on what you want to believe and not the actual truth? (Assuming someone could prove without a shadow of a doubt that your wrong, would you still believe him?)
Let me tell you why I believe they choose it. If you ever heard about the concept of Neuroplasticity….the studies reveal that your thoughts could end up changing your actual brain/mind.
So that means certain parts of your brain could be rewired according to your thinking. So I think if most people think they are gay, there brain starts getting rewired and it looks like they were born gay. This is what I think.
If you look into many homosexuals life history, you will realize certain things made them assume that they were gay. For example, some boys played with Barbie Dolls, if society found out, they will think you might be gay. And you might end up doubting yourself and actually accept that lifestyle.It is definitely something to think about.
I believe the Holy Qur’an is actually God’s word, but a person had to physically write it down (Prophet Muhammad, Peace Be Upon Him).
The Arabic script is still the original that it was 1400 years ago when it was revealed. It hasn’t changed and it can’t change even if people attempt to change it. If you want me to prove this, let me know, and I will show you exactly what i mean. God has promised in the Holy Qur’an to preserve it.
Let me just briefly explain this whole concept of religion. You are right in the sense that many religions have been written by men (basically man made)
But if you study religions, you will be surprised with 3 major religions, Islam, Judaism and Christianity.
The 3 books are the Holy Qur’an, The Torah, and The Gospel (Bible).
What is interesting is that these 3 major religions have one root (it is the Abrahamic Religion)
If you look at these 3 books many of these 3 religions share the same prophets, same stories etc.
I believe at one time the TORAH, THE BIBLE were the word of God. I believe in the original books, the books we have today are corrupted. But even then you could still find many similarities because you can’t change the full thing.
The Torah was changed by men, and then the Bible came, then the Bible was changed, then the Holy Qur’an came for all of mankind.
Holy Qur’an is the only book that has been preserved by God. You can’t change it, that is what I am trying to tell you.
The Arabic script is so pure, I believe that if you add just one letter or subtract letter, it will ruin the whole meaning, So if a person wanted to make changes, it can’t be done without being clearly detected, because the whole meaning will get corrupt.
We call God…..Allah (it is an arabic word for God)
The reason we call him Allah is because it a pure word.
For e.g. in the english language, you can add Godfather or Godson, Goddess etc.
You can end up playing with those words. But in Arabic, there is no such thing as Allahfather, Allahness, or Allahson, nothing like that, it is just Allah.
It is such a pure language, and the Arabic script hasn’t changed, not even one letter. It has been preserved by God.
Islam and Judaism believe in one God….where Christianity ends up believing in Trinity which I believe is wrong. It doesn’t make logical sense. And you can’t prove Trinity or that Jesus is God without the Bible, while I can prove that there is a God without the Holy Qur’an.
There is so much more, if you want to learn more, you can ask.
you said “If they were happily choosing to be gay then why would they often so shamefully hide in the closet in the first place?”
The reason is they get discriminated against by society. That is why they don’t want to come out of the closet.
I would like to ask you a few questions.
1) What is the purpose of Life?
2) Why do people die?
3) Why do we have problems?
I am proud of you for the improvement in your writing Mohammed! Thank you for understanding that, it will pay off I promise!
This debate could go on forever, as I am sure it will. Ultimately, if someone, as yourself, wishes to believe that being gay is wrong and that people are not born gay, they choose it….well, it is not likely that me disagreeing with them is going to change their mind. As the saying goes “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”. This saying applies to me as it applies to you. I am not here to debate about God or religion. I have my own beliefs and I will not sit here and try to convince you that I am right and that you are wrong anymore than you are going to convince me to believe the same thing as you, regardless of how many links or bible versus you post.
I believe that people who are homosexual (most of them) are born that way because of a chromosomal defect. Just like people who are born hermaphrodites & transgender. All fetuses in the womb start out as female and somewhere along the way, there is an imbalance in the hormones. This is what I believe to be true. I will not be convinced otherwise because I have already put years of thought into learning about this and coming to this conclusion on my own. Like Steve, I happen to know a lot of gay people as well and I have a similar stories about the conversations that I have had with them about their sexual orientation. Look how many people have such a hard time “coming out of the closet”. If they were happily choosing to be gay then why would they often so shamefully hide in the closet in the first place?
I have asked other people of different religions the same question about hermaphroditism when we were on the topic about whether or not gay is a choice and have NEVER (stressing, not yelling 😉 ) been given any kind of answer that made any sense at all. Like you, most of them have never thought about it and have no idea. “Man for woman and woman for man” is something I hear a lot….as I believe I saw in another post on here. Well, what do you do if you were born….perfect in the eye of God….as both? If nothing else, for those who believe that gay is wrong and not a choice, it seems to me that this should be an eye opener. In my mind it should make you think about your beliefs and say…”hmmm, what a second….that doesn’t seem right…..maybe there is more to this that just believing everything that I read in (as Steve says) a book of faith.
Another thing that I think about is…we all know that whichever book of faith you choose was written by man. Well, if man is not perfect and God is the only perfect being that ever existed, then how could man have perfectly written this book with no errors whatsoever. They didn’t even have spell check then Mohammed! Can you imagine how that could have turned out after thousands of years of being re-translated and passed down. Doesn’t it seem at all possible that some errors in the translation could have been made along the way. You know the story of Cinderella right? Well the original version was in french and the slipper was actually made out of feathers, not glass. I mean, who would wear a slipper out of glass….one step and it would shatter to pieces. Apparently the word for feather and glass are similar and it got screwed up in translation and this is a pretty important part of the story and it isn’t nearly as old of a story as the Bible is. So if that can be screwed up then how, after thousands of years and thousands of translations, have there NEVER been ANY errors made at all? It is 100% right? I just cannot believe that.
Like I said, I am not trying to convince anyone that their religion is wrong. But just think about that and understand that as much as you want to be right and believe that being gay is wrong…maybe in the original version God really said that it was wrong to eat hay! I am being sarcastic obviously but you get the point!
Sunshine, well thanks for clearing that up. I do get your point about the whole comment thing. I guess it is more of a habit. But I will try to do better.
As far as your question about hermaphrodite, i know what it is, i haven’t really thought about it. I just briefly looked into it, but I am still going to look more into it. It is actually a very interesting question and I will get back to you on that Inshallah (God-Willing).
God doesn’t make mistakes, It is a part of human creation.
He it is Who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (Holy Qur’an 3:6)
This life is a test. God created us to see who is best in morality.
When I said “human rules could be biased and based on self-interest no matter how good they look on paper” I was talking about the specific things that go against DIVINE TRUTH.
“Aren’t thought and opinion God given? Based on your rules, you should never have thoughts or opinions about anything because they could all be wrong, so what’s the point?”
It is a good question. You do agree that there is a subjective truth (opinions, thoughts) and an objective truth (Facts about life and the universe)?
We all have a subjective view on many things which could be RIGHT or WRONG. Agree?
Then there are Objective Truths (the facts that have been proven) which is RIGHT, it is the Actual Truth. (Some things proven by science)
First let me give you my definition of science. I basically define science as a HUMAN UNDERSTANDING of how things work.
That is why some facts end up being proven false later on because we don’t know for sure what is 100% truth. They weren’t really facts, they were THEORIES.
Our goal is to keep finding FACTS in life and that is by testing our subjective views.
Only God could tell us what is objective truth. He can tell us what is RIGHT or what is WRONG.
Now God does challenge you to test the Holy Qur’an if you have any doubts or think it is not divine. This is where your intellect comes into play.
There are many challenges in the Holy Qur’an…we can go into that at a later time…
So basically what I am trying to say is having opinions and thoughts are not enough because everyone has them about various issues. But which one is the ACTUAL TRUTH and how do you know?
God has basically given us all the answers we need.
These different fields of study actually help you realize there must a a HIGHER POWER.
Here is another proof of God. How come we are on one end of knowledge? We are always learning and discovering. We never created it, we can’t alter it. E.g. the law of Gravity, since we didn’t create it, and we know animals or insects didn’t either, since we believe we are the most intelligent beings on the planet. Then who created this whole world that we look at? Who created the law of Gravity? If we didn’t, there must be a higher power that did? This higher power most people call GOD.
Well I tried writing properly, hope you liked it 🙂
I will get back to you on your question about hermaphrodite.
Sheila Munoz
your husband is a PEDOPHILE not a homosexual and was molested not *recruited* when he was a child by a pedophile NOT a homosexual – big, big, difference!
Joe Colosimo
The old testament in Leviticus talks about men lying with men, Jesus doesn’t say its wrong, Jesus is all about love. To lean on the old bible when you say you are Christian (Christianity starts in the new testament btw) is picking and choosing your beliefs. If you are going to insist on swinging both ways you’ll have to spend much more time smiting and stoning your neighbours.
And ‘tolerance’ is something you do with resistance – which is not at all like the love and welcoming like Jesus taught. Love thy neighbour, not tolerate thy neighbour! Oh and what about “do unto others…?”
God created all and God doesn’t make mistakes. Homosexuality exists in all life on earth.
“Let ye who hath not sinned cast the first stone..” – THAT is what Jesus was about!
Mohammed, I want to be clear that I mean no disrespect to you in my previous or current comment. When you are sending a text message to a friend then it seems appropriate to use abbreviations and the like. Everyone may not agree and that is okay, but when you are having an adult conversation about a serious matter and the message is full of misspelled (not just shortened) words and punctuation errors, it makes me think that the person typing it is not educated. Therefore, I disregard their point. You are free to make your own rules. If you were typing a letter to your local governor and you wanted them to take you seriously you would proofread it to make sure you sound educated, it only takes a couple of minutes. People aren’t perfect but at least make it look like you tried. Does that make sense? (A little off of the blog topic)
That being said, I have a question for you. Have you heard of a hermaphrodite, a person with both male and female anatomy? Is this a birth defect? Are they gay? What are they supposed to do? If they engaged sexually with either sex then that would technically make them gay wouldn’t it? And isn’t the inability for the human race to continue to procreate part of your argument against being gay? Whichever higher power anyone believes in usually says that their “God” makes no mistakes. If this is not a birth defect then what is it?
One more thing, you said that “human rules could be biased and based on self-interest no matter how good they look on paper”. I hope you realize that those words apply to you as well. This is your rule. With that logic, what is the point of ever thinking about anything? And doesn’t that prove that your argument could be wrong and based on self interest? Aren’t thought and opinion God given? Based on your rules, you should never have thoughts or opinions about anything because they could all be wrong, so what’s the point?
Hi Steve,
Even though your approach was sound as a critical thinker, I believe your facts are wrong. You see I as Jesus accept those who are gay or lesbian, because all of us are children of God. However just because God loves all children does not mean that he accepts disobedience to His commandments. You see He made them male and female and the bond of marriage was and should be for husband and wife. Now having said that everybody should have the same rights and priveleges. After all we live in a free country. Just do not try to change the sacredness of marriage. As for your other point about choosing to be gay. There are lots of things in life we do not choose, however there are things that we do that can lead us down a certain path. For example, the power of speaking goals can lead one to achieve their goals. Even though there is no evidence of a change a change is wrought in one’s mind.
In closing though, I wish to point out that our job is not to judge. That difficult job will be given to our Saviour Jesus Christ who earned that right by living a perfect life and by making a perfect sacrifice for each of us by being crucified for our sins.
Darryl
“Now I will give you more links…I would honestly like you look into them with Emotions, and use your critical reasoning skills to figure out whether Evolution is true or false”
LoL….I meant “WITHOUT EMOTIONS” not with Emotions…..
I would like you to look into all the links I gave you….and decide for yourself without emotions….whether it could be TRUE OR NOT…
Like I said earlier, I believe the Theory of Evolution is a Materialistic Theory that urges to do “Whatever we Desire” and not care much about Moral Obligations (if it is not in our interest)
“Coincidence. That’s an explanation used by fools and liars.” – Lionel Luthor
Hi Steve,
Yes I love this post….there is too much say, so i will give you links at the end of this post, and you can check them and think deeply for yourself….
Actually all the fields of SCIENCE are PROVING that Evolution is false…
I believe the theory of Evolution is actually a MATERIALISTIC Theory…
I start with this critical thinking question….How can an UNCONSCIOUS thing create a CONSCIOUS BEING? (I would really love for you to sit down and think about this question, it is very powerful)
If a person asked you, that computer you are writing on, was created by itself….you would think the person is crazy…then how can we say the world was created randomly when a small thing like a computer can’t create itself…
Nothing is random in this world, everything happens for a reason….
Name me one thing around you that was randomly created? Everything you have is your house was created for a purpose….television, bed, computer, books etc.
Non-Believers in God such as Atheists will tell you that God doesn’t exist and they don’t believe in him….they are LYING,
They do believe in a GOD….and the name of their GOD is COINCIDENCE
They believe everything was randomly created….here is another thing to think about……if we were created by CHANCE, nothing would be perfect in this world, everyone would have been deformed, there would be total chaos in the universe (since it has no CONSCIOUS INTENT)
Here is an analogy….there is a game of scrabble…..if a person puts all the pieces in his hands and shakes them and throws them on the board, how many words do you think he will make? If he is lucky one or two or maybe 3…..(you can call that RANDOM/CHANCE)…..compared to a person who organizes letters on the board to make words (that is Intelligent Design)…..now using this analogy….do you think the UNIVERSE came by CHANCE or INTELLIGENT DESIGN?
From the second half of the 20th century onward, however, the privileged position that the theory of evolution had enjoyed among the scientific community became increasingly problematic. Observations and experiments in a wide range of scientific disciplines, from paleontology to biology and from anatomy to genetics, began to produce findings that argued against the theory. In the face of these new scientific findings, evolutionists suddenly found themselves and their theory on the defensive.
By the beginning of the 21st century, the theory of evolution had become the subject of wide debates the world over. To a large extent, it had lost its former prestige and in many quarters was expected to collapse at any time soon. Between the lines, world-renowned scientific magazines such as Nature, New Scientist, Science and Scientific American began publishing frequent doubts about the theory of evolution.
What, then, were these findings which led to the sudden undermining of the theory of evolution? These can be grouped under three main categories:
1. Increasingly, biologists have discovered that living organisms consist of exceedingly complex structures. It has been shown that proteins, DNA and the cell, all possess irreducible complexity and cannot have come into being by chance, as the theory of evolution originally maintained. That impossibility has also been calculated mathematically.
2. It has now been accepted that natural selection and mutation, long proposed as the mechanisms of evolution, have no power to cause living species to evolve. Natural selection may weed out weak or sickly individuals, but brings no new genetic information to living organisms, and mutations merely damage existing genetic information.
3. The transitional forms that evolutionists expected to find in the fossil record- and which might be regarded as proof that species evolved from one another-have not been found. Fossils emerge suddenly and with all their particular features fully present, and the fossil record demonstrates that no species experienced any process of gradual change leading to its eventual disappearance.
(THE TRANSITIONAL FORM DILEMMA)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/transitional/transitional01.php
Today, such branches of science as paleontology, genetics, biochemistry, and molecular biology have proven that it is quite impossible for life to come about as a result of chance and to emerge by itself from natural conditions. The living cell, it is commonly agreed by the world of science, is the most complex structure that mankind has so far encountered. Modern science has revealed that just one living cell has a much more complex structure and mutually interconnected complicated systems than a large city. Such a complex structure can only function if all its separate parts emerge at the same time and in full working order. Otherwise, it will serve no purpose, and will fall apart over time and disappear. We cannot expect that its parts developed by chance over millions of years as claimed by the theory of evolution. For that reason, the complex design in just one cell clearly shows that God created life. (For more details, see Harun Yahya, The Miracle in the Cell)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/science/miracle_in_cell/miracle_cell_01.php
You know Richard Dawkins, who is known to be “Darwin’s Rottweiler”….his beliefs are changing. In all his recent articles, conversations and interviews, Dawkins has begun to voice a single truth: that life on Earth cannot have formed by chance!
http://us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/8581/RICHARD_DAWKINS_IS_WISING_UP!
Now I will give you more links…I would honestly like you look into them with Emotions, and use your critical reasoning skills to figure out whether Evolution is true or false…
Please look into them when you get the chance….
(The Collapse of the Theory of Evolution in 20 Questions)
http://www.harunyahya.com/20questions02.php#q1
(THE COLLAPSE OF THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION IN
50 THEMES)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/evolution_50themes/50evolution01.php
(New Research Demolishes Evolution)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/newresearch/newresearch1.php
(How Fossils Overturned Evolution: Millions of Proofs that Refute Darwinism)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/living_fossils/fossils_01.php
(IF DARWIN HAD KNOWN ABOUT DNA)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/if_darwin_had_known/if_darwin_had_known01.php
(DARWIN’S DILEMMA: THE SOUL)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/the_soul/the_soul_01.php
(The Cambrian Evidence That Darwin Failed to Comprehend)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/cambrian/cambrian1.php
(ATLAS OF CREATION)
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/atlas_creation/atlas_creation_01.php
Oops… Hi again Steve,
I loved the question put to a Marine after he said he would quit the Marines if gay men were openly allowed to serve. The question went like… Well you’re a Marine and Marines are are supposed to be tough enough to handle anything, so how is it that you cannot handle someone who is openly gay? Great question. I don’t recall his response.
As for me, I have friends, some very dear who are gay or lesbian and we seem to have a mutual understanding that they do not try to convert me. I’m very OK with that.
And one of my lesbian friends agrees with me that we have many things in common, one of which is “We’re not that interested in men”. Ha! We laughed about that.
Take care, travel safe.
Ray
What a great question back to the Marine, Ray. I think stories like this help advance the cause of critical thinking. America will catch up eventually. It’s just years of brainwashing in the schools, church, media, and through coaches, teachers, ministers, etc. It’s time for all of us to let go and let people live their lives on their own terms. Thanks for your comment.
Hi Steve,
Steve,
I needed a little time to feel out your explanation to my post to you a few days ago. I did initially react emotionally to your blog topic without realizing the dual nature of your profession. Thanks for the clarification and please accept my apology for my reprimanding comment. I enjoyed the speech workshop immensely.
Patrick,
No offense taken. The topic of mental toughness and critical thinking makes me a lightening rod. I encourage audiences and the media to push back just as you did so we can learn from each other. No matter what side you take, I just appreciate you joining the discussion. I don’t claim to have the answers, I just love to be a part of a debate on issues that matter. Thanks for jumping in and I hope you’ll make more comments in the future.
lol Patrick….that is funny…thanks for the laugh…just so you know i dun agree with the behavior, but i accept u as a person…i believe there is always hope in a person to change or become better………take care
Oh! Mohammad. I love it when you talk to me so rough. You big burly man you. I know you’ve proved without a doubt that homosexuality is wrong. You’re so wise : – )
Sunshine, thank you for your concern, the focus of the post is to get the message across, not on the grammar itself. I could focus on the grammar a little more but i have too much to say and it will take so much time. Another thing is that if you know that on the web we also you short language to get the point across and that is what i do.
E.g. Instead of you, you can use “u”……..etc.
Does it make me seem ignorant? Well sorry if it comes across that way. I don’t necessarily agree that it makes my point seem irrelevant. Someone that is reading it could definitely understand what i am communicating.
As far as the CAP LETTERS are concerned, I am not yelling….you can look at those words in the same way a person makes words BOLD……and do you know why they make it BOLD? The answer is EMPHASIS…
You said it is “Web Etiquette 101″….well yes you could be right or wrong….but here is an interesting thing, who agreed to that? Who made those rules? What if I don’t agree? Why can’t I make my own rules?
It is a human made rule, and as humans we know we are prone to making mistakes…something to think about…
This is why I say that there could be only one TRUTH..and that is God’s Rules…. because human rules could be bias, they could be based on self-interest…no matter how good they might look on paper….think about it……same thing with homosexuality (Your Will vs God’s Will)
If God says it is wrong, then he knows best, whether your limited mind could understand it or not…
Steve,
Nice to see my post aren’t the only ones that go sideways. Regarding emotion and critical thinking, can one really back off from such topics without emotion? Wouldn’t some emotion on a subject get us to think deeper?
Michael M. your thoughts?
Ward
Ward,
The logic-based critical thinking I teach is the polar opposite of deep thinking. Logic seems to be found closer to the surface of cognition, and in very simple terms. The deep thinking that emotion creates often clouds judgment, and that’s why we try to avoid it in business. Deep emotional thinking seems to works better in areas like love, loyalty, hope, positive thinking, faith, etc. I’ve found that both emotion and logic are valuable as long they are not blended together, which is what many people do when it comes to areas like money, religion, morality, etc, and thats where critical thinking ends and delusional thinking begins. Thats why we see otherwise intelligent people make outragous, sometiimes ludicris, statements. They want to believe something so badly that they willing and publicly suspend their disbelief and sense of reason. It’s amazing to observe this as an objective outsider, and thats what I get paid to do. Nice work if you can get it, huh?! Thanks for jumping in on the discussion, Ward. I look forward to reading more of your views on this blog.
Mohammad, when you type a comment full of grammatical errors, it takes away from your message and makes you seem ignorant making your point irrelevant. Also, when you type something in ALL CAPS it is as if you are YELLING in your comment. Just a little web etiquette 101 for you.
lol Patrick, look at u, you getting offended hahah…..be a MAN….i have no idea what your problem is….i never called u anything, and u out here dissin me…..I already PROVED homosexuality is wrong without a doubt……otherwise prove me wrong…..i deal with actual FACTS not opinions……so quit being GAY
Mohammad and Patrick,
I appreciate you both for your passion and enthusiasm, but allow me to suggest that you avoid letting your emotions run wild through personal attacks. We debate the issues on this blog with everything we have, but if you check back on this blogs three year history you won’t see personal attacks. This blog has 20,000 of the smartest subscribers you will see on the internet, and it rarely (if ever) turns personal. The people that can’t handle an oppposing point of view tend to unsubscribe as soon as their beliefs are challenged because it scares them. It challenges the way they makes sense if the world, and that terrifies them so much that they attack and eventually run away. I don’t think either of you falls into this catagory, and thats why I wanted to make this suggestion. Thanks again to both of you for your passionate participation. Please continue to weigh-in. And Mohammad, you’re going to LOVE the next post! 🙂