I was speaking in Philadelphia last week when the Boy Scouts of America announced that they would continue to ban gay kids from becoming Boy Scouts and Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender parents from being volunteer scout leaders. Since I wrote about my support of gay rights in my latest book; Sex-Politics-Religion: How Delusional Thinking is Destroying America, my phone has been ringing off the hook with requests for interviews. Watch this short video where I tell the story of my radio debate with three Christian Ministers from Harvard and Yale University and my personal meeting with Rev. Jesse Jackson. I’ll look forward to your comments on this important social issue.
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Before I begin, let’s be clear that I believe discrimination is a bad thing. But homosexuality is not as black and white as most people (on both sides) would have you believe. I think this topic – especially in regards to how it relates to the boy scouts – requires a little more analysis.
The question you have to ask is: What is the primary concern of those not wanting to allow homosexuals into the boy scouts? Now, I don’t know the answer to that question, but I would assume that it is not because they want to discriminate against homosexuals (although, I could be wrong). Even if that were the intent, that type of reasoning would never hold up in our system of law. But perhaps their perspective is a little different than those who think it is discriminatory not to allow homosexuals into the boy scouts.
Think of it in terms of why we have separate bathrooms for men and women. I believe it has something to do with not wanting their to be any sexual temptation or activity going on in the bathroom. If that is not the only reason, it is at least part of the reason. Perhaps this is the attitude of the boy scouts. Maybe they do not want there to be any sexual temptation or activity. Not to say that there will be sexual activity if homosexuals are allowed in the boy scouts, but it would definitely be more likely. Perhaps this is why girl scouts and boy scouts are separate.
If we are truly objective, then you have to consider all perspectives in order to understand why people might behave or believe a certain way. If they are worried about the potential sexual problems that might occur, then I believe that to be a legitimate concern. However, if there is a way to monitor the sexual behavior and still allow homosexuals into the boy scouts, then I believe there might be more of a case for discrimination.
I’m primarily playing devil’s advocate, but I honestly want to believe the possibility that there is more to this than just discrimination. If so, then the real problem is not discrimination. The real problem is finding a way to eliminate the concerns that accompany homosexuality in regards to the boy scouts.
Hello Steve,
I was disappointed in the title – it was completely misleading and dishonest. You seemed to be above those tactics.
Do you have any statements from MLK or Jesus to support your opinion of how they would feel? If not, let’s hear your opinion stated as your opinion. If you argument is so weak that you have to voice your opinion through great people, please keep it to yourself.
Thank you,
Hugh Curley
Steve,
Use your critical thinking experience and ask yourself “Why are the Boyscouts against having gays in their organization?” Do you really believe they are discriminatory or bigots?
But first you have to ask yourself, What is the gay or the LGBT trying to push, what is their agenda? Why do they feel they need to pry their way into organizations who believe differently?
Is it equal rights? Equal pay? To redefine marriage? Or is it about SEX? (clue have you seen an LGBT parade vs the Macy’s Day parade)
Second, Jesse Jackson is an idiot (no offense to Mr. Jackson or his mother and for those of you who don’t know me I say that with love). A man who has made his millions by suppressing black Americans, a man who has no character or integrity (personal life well documented) and is one of the biggest discriminators of all time. Hero? And because he’s been a high profile individual this makes him a greater authority than the three ministers you spoke to earlier or was it just that Mr. Jackson claimed your views?
Third, you keep saying “What would Jesus do? Would Jesus discriminate? If you take the time to research you’ll find it’s well documented what HE would do and what HE thinks. Does HE LOVE gays … YES, without question! Does he believe homosexuality is a sin? ABSOLUTELY (you and I both know it’s well documented). So what is the “Christ like” that you keep asking? Simple … Hate the sin, but love the sinner!
Lastly, you have failed to say whether you believe there is a morality line. If there isn’t then your new cause can march on, but if some people believe in morality does that make them bigots? If they believe in sexual immorality and choose to preach against it does that make them discriminators?
Appreciate the forum. I still think you’d be better served fighting the cause of “How Rich People Think!”
With all do respect,
Ward D Lyon
Ps … By the way Steve, does Jesus believe there is sexual immorality?
You said it all, Steve. I have nothing to add.
David,
here is one of my main problems with the dabate about the gay issue:
Just because you disagree with a dfifferent lifestyle or politcal view does NOT MEAN THAT YOU HATE THAT PERSON. Why do we accept this notion that a disagreement is automatically discrimination and HATE. Where is the critical thinking in this? There are many political and social issues I disagree, on both sides of the spectrum, but I do not HATE anybody for any reason. Using the term Hate and discimination in the same sentence sshows a clear political agenda. By the way one of the main culprits of this type of talk are Rev. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Charles Rangel and Spike Lee. So Jackson has no credibility on this issue.
Let’s disagree, have a debate, be civil, but don’t call other people HATERS.
Mike Jacobi
To whom it may concern: (yes, the guy sitting next to you…)
Define your words. It is impossible to not discriminate. Impossible! Discriminate: to recognize a difference. When I walk down the street and see a snake, I have discriminated (realizing that it is a snake). When I walk down the street and see a woman sitting, I have discriminated (recognizing that she is a woman). When I walk down the street and see an Asian girl, I have discriminated (recognizing that she is Asian, or anything else). How can I not? Impossible not to.
The confusion in the discrimination discussion is:
1. Linking of behavior with some physical feature then attacking anyone who recluses him or herself from either one.
2. Use of force to remedy a perceived injustice.
3. Accusation.
How can you say that Paul must be responsible for his actions then take away his choice of action; and even worse, you try to force him to do something because of what YOU think he should do. You just took away his humanity, or tried to. Who are you?
The homosexual also has the power of choice but you say nothing to him! Thousands of societies have tried homosexuality and failed. They tried 1000s of times, but somehow we are going to get it right in 2012? What a laugh! My or your opinion on matters of behavior means nothing. History speaks. Ask Santayana.
Certain behaviors, specially long term, will fail. I know that doing drugs will cause me to fail. History is clear. I know that sleeping with multiple women will cause me to fail. History is clear. I know that engaging in homosexuality will cause me to fail. History speaks, is clear, proven, my or your opinion does not matter. I must adapt/respect the laws of nature but you say, that is discrimination.
If you want to reinvent the wheel, go ahead, I am not going to stop you but don’t you dare try to force/intimidate me into engaging or accepting behaviors the books, history, show clearly lead to death. Death may not be immediate but it is on its way.
If you want to do these things, that is your choice. I cannot and will not interfere but don’t you dare use force, even via government, to intimidate me to accept even advocate, tacitly or not, these behaviors.
By the way, I do not have any Mongolian friends. Not one. Neither am I interested, nor does any one of them interested in becoming my friend. Neither of us care. So, who are you going to accuse of discrimination? Who? Both of us? On what basis? Who are you to tell us what to do? Why do I have to hang around Mongolians? Blue people? Green people? Black people? White people? Red people? Who are you to tell me what to do?
The dangerous part of discrimination is the accusation of it! If someone does not like you because of your skin color, so what? I do not like the shape of your ears! They are too damn ugly! To me they are! So… what are you going to do? Intimidate me? Force me to accept your ears? Force me to … what?
Remember, your using force against me will be turned against you! Wait until government forces you to have sex with animals! Refusing to lie down with a baboon is discrimination according to your book because you define discrimination as any restraint in behavior, or dislike of some skin color. Baboons have a different skin color. Are you going to accuse me of discrimination because of it? I hope you do. Because I will discriminate against associating with baboons as I would with a woman specifically because of its race, language, species, odor, skin color, teeth color, tongue color, nail color, etc.
Wait until you are forced to engage in something you do not like to do! And using government to force a behavior does not change law. The consequence of behavior are always automatic and immutable. Mother nature is not to be played with. If you think so… be my guest.
Then, perhaps, you will get a taste of your own medicine.
Boy-Oboy has America got a long way to go before it is a true democratic, freedom of thought nation.
Re Jesse J, I envey you the oportunity you had to talk and be with him.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, that man has done more than many in the in the name of freedom.
I work in prisons with CSO’s, of the 50-60 only aprox 20% are Gay, of that 20% some ask me how they can come to know Christ when the church is so dicriminating against them. There is the rub, the church apears to be doing more to keep souls from accepting christ than helping them on to the Christian walk.
I suggest some of you read Math 19-12 CHRISTS WORDS, I don’t believe Christ would discriminate, if he does I want nothing to do with him
Thank you David
PS I am not Gay and I am a believer
Steve!!!! My only complaint about your article is the title; I was really looking forward to seeing you debate Jesse Jackson! Seriously, thanks for having the strength and standing up for what is right!
Discrimination of any kind is simply wrong.
The fact that the Boy Scout’s are teaching children life skills and demonstrating with their actions and policies that hate and discrimination are ok “for some groups” it’s so very wrong!
But the real madness and what makes me even sadder are all the people who are so damn homophobic and scared that they won’t “THINK” through this apart from their warped, so-called “values”.
They actually think you can catch being GAY like you can catch a COMMON COLD! People wake up “You cannot catch being GAY” just like you cannot catch being born male/female/black/white/purple/tall/short.
Thanks, David
(I should add… something – a conviction – that is DIFFERENT from yours). That is NOT what YOU have taught us to do!
I think it is mentally and morally TOUGH for the Boy Scouts to stand up for what they believe in… period! Quit trying to SWAY those who have strong convictions about something!
I am blown away with your support of anykind towards Jackson. There is not a bigger racist anywhere. Why Mike, would you destroy your rep by even associating with this filth? Have you been Liberally brainwashed too? I
guess the end of the good times really is near.
Steave I always try hard to understand your point of view here as I do agree with you most of the time. But when you and Mr. Jackson say you are againist any kind of “Discrimination” my question to both of you would be: What about a person who is a Petafile? Would that not also be discrimination if they did not allow them to join? After all, a Petafile feels they should be able to live their life as they please as well. What about any sex-offenders for that matter?
As a private organization, the Boy Scouts do have to have rules and regulations as to keeping to their moral standards as they have for all of these years. If it were a goverment run organization, than I think you would have a much better point here to stand on.
The problem I am having here is when you compare this with the black and white issue; that is simply not the same thing. I think if we go down that path it is opening a very slippery slope for just about anyone who feels they are to be accepted reguardless of their lifestyles.
I agree you have the right to your opinion and you have the right to make it heard.
So do I.
Boy Scouts is a private club. Churches are private clubs. They can limit membership in any method they choose. That’s their right.
Crying about it and saying how unfair it is, on the other hand, is really not a mentally tough attitude. (Not that you did that but it those being kept out are doing it.)
If everyone that disagrees with their policy would get together and create a new club, now that would be mentally tough.
Mike, I applaud your comments and reasoning… and the intent behind why you offer them. Well done and thanks for offering them up to the group.
You are my family. All the people in the world are our family. We must take care of our family. I am a member of your family. Please take care of all of us. Then, from the fruit of love we can come up with the solutions to cause a loving earth.
Many forms of government were giving birth with that idea in mind. Just as religions have love as their source, new ideas are evolved. This has been a successful tact and some of the precepts of religion are instrumental to cause people enjoyment of the earth. A problem arises when existing sins of the mind and flesh cause us commission of deadly sins. Then these sins are promulgated which cause a wide acceptance of selfish and self-serving philosophy.
Our job is to look within ourselves to determine what goals we would like to pursue and attain. Our goals then become the strengths in our ability to give to our family.
We as humans have not acted unselfishly and at times we have acted as a bully . We must make changes toward the goal of selflessness. We attain the ability to give unselfishly so that we can become self-actualized. With that motivation we can become relaxed and resourceful, unrestrained, easy, un-agitated, undisturbed, at ease, laid back to obtain ideas only to bring us all together.
There is a difference between banning a group for a lifestyle versus banning a group for racial or religious reasons. Homosexuality is not a religion or an ethnicity. It is a behavior.
There has been a push in this country to make homosexuality a “normal” part of our society and mandate that everyone accept it. This push includes the idea that if you don’t accept homosexuality as part of a normal part of life, then there is something wrong with you. This gets down to a religious freedom argument as well. Biblicially speaking, homosexuality is taught to be an abomination. A sin worthy of death. However when freedom loving Americans embrace the Christian faith and embrace this teaching from God, they are ridiculed, made fun of, and mocked. If God had said homosexuality was ok, then we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But as always, man thinks he knows better than God in these types of situations. Standing up for your religious beliefs is NOT discrimination.
Furthermore, there is a difference between homosexuals and homosexuality. The ban is in place to remove the homosexual lifestyle from members of a group. Some people have speculated that Jesus hates homosexuals which could not be further from the truth. Jesus has denounced homosexuality, not homosexuals. They are human beings he loves and wants to see come to know him just like anyone else, however if Jesus thought it was ok to have homosexuality included his teachings, perhaps at least one of his disciples would have been gay. None were.
It take courage to voice our belief and stand up for the fairness. What I truly like about you and continue to listen to your opinion is that you have “guts” to stand up for your belief. Most people in the “real world” don’t voice their opinion – afraid of being outcast. I admire your courage Steve.
I also belief sex orientation, race, gender and age, should never be an issue in any form of human contact, but we do. Why? Fear and Control.
it’s wrong to teach our children to hate (hate comes from fear), and it’s wrong to teach our children to control others.
The God I know is a loving God – once we take love out of the equation, there’s no God involved any more.
Very simple, Really!
It is funny how we keep winding up in the same debate about discrimination. We haven’t learned from the female discrimination. We haven’t learned from the blacks discrimination.Intelligent people are not perfect, but they learn from their mistakes.
I love the bible quotes anytime we come to an issue like this. Adam and Eve are always referred to in the gay dispute. Let’s think about that. If all of humanity started with just Adam and Eve, whom did their children marry so they could have children too. if there were no other human beings on the planet, who did the children of Adam and Eve marry. If they married each other and we all are the descendants of Adam and Eve, we have practiced incest to some degree.
When Eve was created she was to be Adam’s partner, according to the Bible. It did not say she became his property. Yet women had to fight for human rights and we, at that time, felt women were betraying the Bible.
We are following men with egos that think they are more in touch with God than everyone else. No man is closer to God than you or I. We are all the same. How many more people must we hurt or kill in the name of God. If you believe Jesus would turn away the gays,then you need to re-read the Bible for yourself, not just listen to a scared man’s interpretation. Jesus turned no one away.
It’s funny we are so worried about the gay men, when it is the heterosexual men that are harming our children. it is the men of the cloth, the special ones of God, that are harming our children. Look at who is actually harming the children and you may find you are fighting the wrong battle.
Based on the anti gay claim, no Catholic Priest could ever be a scout leader either.
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. -Amos 3:7
The Family
——————————————————————————–
A Proclamation to the World
The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.
Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.”
Enough said!
Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he brevealeth his csecret unto his servants the dprophets. -Amos 3:7
The Family
——————————————————————————–
A Proclamation to the World
The First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children.
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshipped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.
The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God’s commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God’s eternal plan.
Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalm 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, and to teach them to love and serve one another, observe the commandments of God, and be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.
We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society.”
Enough said!
Hey Steve,
Using Jesse Jackson for a spokesman for MLK is has about zero credibility. His life has been anything but a shining example of moral purity (fathered a child via an adulterous affair and then tried to hide it) and racial harmony (Hymietown anyone?).
Joe C.
Mike,
this debate about gays is such an emotional charged debate, how do you want to have an true intellectual discussion? For starters: One side claims, gays have been born like this and they cannot chose their behavior. Obviously this is the gay right’s side. Applying critical thinking one has to admit, that promoting this position gives them a well heard voice in the public discours. And by positioning it as a discrimination issue, gives them certain emotional and financial benefits. So in other words, they stand to gain by defending this position.
The other side says: being gay is chosen behavior and can be changed. But how can they prove their point? They would need gays willing to undergo treatments. They run into the gays firm believe, that they did not chose their lifestyle.
With other words, as human behavior and emotions are involved, there cannot be an objective, critical thinking resistant resolution to these 2 opposing views.
What might be a worthwhile (but still very hotly lead) debate is the question: how much special treatment under the law gays should receive?
Mike Jacobi
Have been a fan of Steve Seibold but now a retired fan! Jesse Jackson your hero? You have got to be kiddin me? You just revoked and denounced much of your credibility.
Steve,
Thank you for standing up for what you believe in and fighting for the rights of everyone. I have a lot of faith in the people of my generation (Gen Y) and most young people I talk with are striving for gay rights. It will happen. Thank you for all you do, Steve! Your books and emails have changed my life!
Brooke
Steve,
this is most and formost a legal issue. Right now the Boyscouts of America are fighting legal battles of incidents going back to the 80’s, of abusive adult leaders. The same people, who are clamoring to allow gays into Boyscouts, will be the first ones to sue them, if anything should go wrong. Let me be clear: I am NOT saying that a gay adult leader is any more prone to misuse his position than a straight leader. But it takes only one misbehaving adult and Boyscouts will get sued.
Additionally, Boyscouts of America is a private organization and according to a Supreme Court decision, as private organisation has every right to not except everybody in their ranks.
You say that sexual preferences should have nothing to do with Boyscouts. However, these young boys join and advance in scouting during puberty, with all its hormonal and emotional issues. To add the gay issue in this mix at that time of their development, might not be the best thing to do.
I admit I am somewhat biased on this issue, as my son is an Eagle Scout and I am still an adult leader.
Thank you. Discrimination of any sort does not change the fact that we are denyting ourselves extraordinary opportunity