This is a question for the faithful. Where is God when tragedy strikes? Where is God when innocent people are slaughtered? Is this is a question of logical vs. emotional thinking, or is it something more? Watch this video I shot in New Orleans and I’ll look forward to your comments. Steve Siebold ( 2:45 )
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I don’t know if Osama is dead. Just because the US government says he’s dead, and the media repeats it as news and presupposes it as fact in subsequent stories, doesn’t make it true.
We were shown over the last decade several different people who were all supposed to be OBL in junky “home videos”. Some were tall and thin, some were right-handed while others left handed, some were fat and simply didn’t look like the guy squatting and shooting the AK-47 we’ve all seen 14,000 times. Forgive my not believing until I see it, but I don’t buy the party line that presumes his death or his death as widely accepted in the US.
To me, the real story is that the American empire (like the Roman Empire before it) continues to grow. I love the principles these United States were founded upon but with troops stationed in or occupying over 170 countries around the world we’ve far distanced ourselves from the government intended by imperfect, not-100% in agreement but wise men.
I’m for freedom not imposition of “virtue”.
RR
I agree 100%, Ron. The founders never intended to create another empire. This is one of the reasons I’m supporting Ron Paul for President.
Hey Steve!
I would like to take the time to answer the question from my point of view “where was God in 911?”
I think the underlying question is, if there is a God why did he allow 9/11?
Well Steve my response may sound bias because I am a Christian man but I think my answer may be something you have never heard before and using logical thinking void of emotion I believe it to be the right answer.
I will have to reference something in the Bible to explain this but not to give a religious point of view but a logical answer to the nature of this thing we call “GOD” Before you read on and maybe you believe different religions just listen to this for a little cause it is void of emotion and logical to understand even if I wasnt a Christian.
In the book of Genesis it said that God created a man and gave him dominion over the earth to RULE. And God also gave him free will. You’re probably familiar with that right? Ok now heres the critical question to describe the nature of God if you believe in God ok.
God is not a man that he should lie so if God said that man has dominion over the earth and he didnt stop Adam and Eve from sinning in the garden, then the critical thinking question is, “why would you think he would stop 9/11?” Here’s another question, “if God would had intervened in the garden wouldn’t He had lied to Adam and Eve when he said he gave man dominion?”
So God was in the same place he was when Adam and Eve sinned, when other tragedies have happened, the answer>>> God was keeping His Word.
Love your stuff Steve! Hope this message was thought provoking!!!
There is no god.
Osama has been long ago eaten by marine life or decayed into oblivion.
Jim,
I hope you’re wrong, but I can’t prove it. Neither can anyone else. My question for you is, how can you be so sure there is no God?
Not to be rude Steve, but your question is inherently childish. It presumes that God is some fairy/candyman that is around when “times are good” yet disappears during tragedy. This is toddler think. Whether or not one believes in God, any adult should know that great personal growth typically comes when we are challenged. Being able to dance in the rain is much more powerful than smiling through the sunshine. The real question is how are we impacted by these tragedies? What is our response? Do we become more compassionate? Do we understand that we are all connected? Finally, if your book is going to be an American version of Christopher Hitchens cynicism urging people to let go of spiritual delusions, you will get a lot of press but you will not make much of an impact in people’s lives.
Osama lives in the hearts and minds of his many believers and followers. We like to feel relieved that he can cause no more trouble while forgetting that he has many acolytes who live.
There are so many castrastrophes back to back how could any person or any god choose which one to attend? Do we really expect this poor, overworked god to be everyplace all the time?
Perhaps this god is hoping that by his standing back from the fray we will sooner or later learn to take responsibility for ourselves and each other.
This the same question that i asked when I watched the 9/11 victims. “Where is good?” but at a calmer state of mind i believe everything happens for a reason, and he knows best and we should not question him.
Personally in tough times I believe there is always something to learn. Maybe its to increase mental toughness, or maybe its to become closer to god or both.
I think God is still watching over all. Humans have free will and we all do what we want to do. If you want to go grab a gun and go make a difference or if you want to be an advocate of peace, it’s all your own free choice and will. We will all be judged on what we do at some point and til then it is up to us what we do.
Steve , maybe instead of asking where God goes when there is evil around , maybe we should ask does he exist at all , or is it just the result of a force generated by shepherds and the like gazing up at the Heavens and in their level of knowledge seeing a “God” in the heavens ; some saw Zeus and the boys others Ra and the boys and still others saw Oden and Thor and the boys ; and the rest is History
On the other hand:
In the the Buddha said: “I consider the dignities of kings and lords as a particle of dust that floats in the sunbeam. I consider the treasure of precious metals and stones as bricks and pebbles. … I consider the struggle between heterodox and orthodox as the antics of the six [mythical] dragons. I consider the doctrine of sameness as the absolute ground of reality. I consider all the religious works done for universal salvation as like the plants in the four seasons.”
To quote Osho (who was not even a Buddist) The Buddha was the greatest anachist in human history … Buddha says there is no God because if there is a God and any belief in God then man can never be free because there is a dominator, a dictator. … If he’s omnipotent, omnipresent, ominscient then how can freedom exist?
With God there can be no democracy.
I share these views. There is enough compassion, joy and grace in the present moment. 9/11 did not destroy these things and clinging to dogma or wishing you enemys would go to hell will not prevent another.
God is with us wherever we are. are people listening to him, are they allowing him to influence decisions they make, whether good or bad, right or wrong, People are responsible for making decisions, let us get closer to God in order to start and keep making healthy choices in life. God is about life not death! In him there is life.
God’s ways are not our ways, God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, He is so much bigger than we can even begin to ask or think, so whatever He is doing is really none of my business and I will never even begin to understand in this life. I am THANKFUL that I don’t have to! I get to live in my day, this day only, and strive to do the best I can within my little, limited thinking world. Thank God He so kindly gives me a new 24 every single day to start over! Someday I will have eyes to see answers to all of this, but that’s not today!
As an Atheist this becomes a moot question. If there is no god, then there is no logical reason to look for some spiritual angle to 9/11. What I can tell you is that if the human race continues to believe in mythical beings that presumably guide our destiny and impose on us dogmatic ideals that oppose reason, scientific inquiry and an objective analysis of that facts as we can percieve them, then our race is doomed. It is not about looking into the face of god and finding grace. It is looking into the face of your neighbor, whether he be Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Atheist and evaluating him as a human being. Secularism is the key to freedom in a democracy. The closer a nation slides to a religious basis for ruling its people, the closer it gets to a totalitarian state. There is no room for religion in the house we call a rational mind – or at best, a little vestibule at the rear of the building.
This is awesome.
There is so much that can be said about the questions of where God is in times of disaster and Osama Bin Laden’s current state of being. It is very difficult to even fathom being able to fully, logically, concretely answer such a question because much of what anyone has to say is rooted in personal experience, emotion, their personal beliefs, and what they’ve read.
For me, I’ve come to understand that there are many forces in the world.. Natural (disasters), evil behaviors of people, kind-hearted acts of people, and each of us is a spiritual being. We have a soul and a way of reacting in the world.
The REAL questions aren’t “Where was God” or “Where is Bin Laden”, but, “Why does God allow bad things to happen?”, and “What happens when someone thinks they are serving God through despicable acts?”
As for why God allows bad things to happen–I’m thinking he allows it for experiential growth and opportunity for all observers, victims, and perpetrators. Does seeing 9-11 result in your personal feelings of compassion, forgiveness, and reflection? Or does it result in anger, hatred, and acting out towards others?
A person who is maturing as a spirit is going to seek the higher ground through trying to understand others, help others, and through personal growth towards loving mankind. How could personal/spiritual growth be developed or assessed in anyone without challenges along the way? If everything is always good and no one experiences any problems, life is just daily one-thing-to-the next without any challenge to one’s spirit. In some ways, I think God allows evil to happen to contrast good–How would a person truly grasp doing things for the greater good if everything was always even keel with no contrary forces in the world? I think God watches EACH of us to see how we act and react to the world around us.
Likewise, I think God looks at the motivations of a man’s heart, as well as a man’s understanding of God. The Muslim religion does not condone the mass slaughter of innocent people in a Holy war. I think the majority of people on the planet, of all nationalities and faiths, would agree that Bin Laden’s perspective on the “holiness” of slaughtering millions of innocent people is an extremist view point not logically supported by his professed religious faith. As such, Bin Laden failed to fully know and understand his God. Therefore, he failed to measure up to God’s expectations of His followers. I’m thinking it is most likely that Bin Laden did not make it into Heaven–even though he thought he was going to the happy ever after. His failures and cruelty towards mankind would not demonstrate understanding and following of God’s teachings.
Just my thoughts, for what they’re worth!
it depends what kind of projection you’ve created of some sort of superior power or father or a rescuer that now you have to call it god, so as a result you should ask where is he or she NOW ? but to me it’s just some laws and numbers or any other type of unknown sciences behind it, which are precise on a grand scale but i’m not sure if every details would be explained one day so one would be better off to rely on his/her own mind and chances and laws instead of hanging to a big illusion such as GOD.
Steve, I don’t believe such questions can be answered without some religious belief or backing.
That said, I have been taught that I am not to pass judgement. Therefore, I cannot say whether Bin Ladin is in Heaven or Hell — that’s not my place to pass such judgement. I do believe that he will have to answer to God for his doings — as will we all.
Where was God during the events you mentioned? Where were my earthly parents when I experienced things as a child both good and bad? Did my parents always intervene when I experienced pain? I don’t always intervene when my children experience pain. But I do try to be there for them to love them. I believe God, who certainly knows a bit more than we do is there for us, also. I believe He handles things a little more perfectly than we do. I believe we’re here to learn, from our own experience and from the experiences of others. I believe God expects that of each of us.
God created the universe and allowed the people to give themselves heck…People in Middle east feel prejudiced and set up 9/11 attack… God accept it as such… God did created good people to do good also… Retaliation did a turn against “forces of evil” the same forces that attacked Pearl Harbout… But these forces have people bodies… Hard to kill the “forces”
I saw the video of a soldier wanting to, and did blow up a van in Iraq and I wondered where God was.for the children inside… When we observe God creation and we formulate universe laws from observation, we see cause and effect… Violence respond to violence and love does the same eventually… Ghandi somewhat. did it. Why ask God where He was when he was there in the creation. We only need to use God tool such as use “mental toughness” for example to love and be in some form of peach. So God was there… within nature and in love but resentful people didn’t listen and attack anyway..
but they chose to follow their mind and do this to show love fom people in their countries… ….
The water,the wind,the sun and earth are available to all of each and everyday or breath we breathe. We never see the wind but we feel it. It moves the limbs of the trees and shrubs but it is not visible. The source or force that it comes through and from is also invisible.We believe in what our evolved minds will allow in. The cosmos are in the sky to the naked eye and it is all in order without our doing so.Most of life continues to process and bloom throughout eons. Our own heart will tell us how to live no matter what culture, race or religion background. Let us open our selves to knowing that life is filled with occurences. I personally do not have all the answers to Bin Laden ,or Oklahoma ,or any of the events that took place.What I am responsible for during these times is to accept and connect with my best for the betterment of all. No one knows where one goes after dying until they die.Only Bin Laden knows.Everyone and everything on this earth is impermanant. Therefore it is a fact of this world.If you believe in heaven and hell then that is how you think. We live in a world of absolute perfection ,yet our vision is only on destruction. Good and bad, postive and negative,are all necessary for our own development in our own way we choose to live.We all came from a Source greater than we are and that I know for sure ,no matter what you call it or name it.Life is a gift and how we live it is up to us.No other person can live your life.We are individuals but each of us is a part of the whole.
Steve,
Critical thinking really requires 2 approaches to this question:
1. your individual believes (as long as they don’t limit you) are not necessarily governed by Critical Thinking, as these are YOUR believes.
2. A logical proof that there must a Creator. Werner Heisenberg (German physicist) said that the more your study physics and matter, the more you realize there must a Creator there. Also to this day science has found no explanation for the first atom, how that then multiplied to make all current atoms and for the first DNA. Next comes the question what is the assigned role of the Creator
In my eyes religion fulfills important functions. It provides people with a moral compass and moral pressure to follow the Golden Rule. This does not give us perfect results, but at least satisfactory. Also many people feel overwhelmed by the pressures of life and being able to turn to a Creator, it gives them comfort. On a societal level any religion acts as a barrier to socialism. One of the reason socialism in the former Eastern Bloc failed was the strong belief of large parts of the population in their religion.
The Creator and religion are deeply personal things and as such can be, have been and will be used to great benefit and great harm.
Steve,
This is an impossible question to answer given the constraints you have given but I will do my best.
My thoughts are that the real question is not where was God during the big tragedies that happen that cause suffering. The real question is why hasn’t God completely wiped all human beings off the face of the earth and by the way why dose god even care enough to save many people from these catastrophes? Harold S Kushner wrote a book called ” when bad things happen to good people” and he poses the same exact question. The problem is that the question is actually a presupposition which attempts to hypnotize us into the false belief that there are actually any good people! Good as defined by who? Osama bin Laden? Well where is he he’s in a Good place as defined by himself or as defined by a creator? Obviously if you have ever heard of this book by Norman Geysler ” I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist” you know there must be a creator. You need not look further than a painting to know there was a painter. You would never even begin to imagine something as complicated as an automobile being able to fall together through evolution or natural selection or through an explosion in a iron mine! Why should anyone believe there’s no creator when the human being is a magnitude of order more complex than a car? It’s just impossible no matter how much time because there’s not enough time in the history of the universe to have those kinds of changes take place. Watch this film on youtube for more information about this topic http://youtu.be/VWvS1UfXl8k
Bottom line is we don’t determine what’s good and what’s not. In a post modern world that believes that everything is relative I like to ask the question. Do you believe 100% that every person should determine what’s right and wrong for themselves? The answer in our world today is generally yes? So my answer to that is well then what your saying is that your definition of right and wrong is the end all be all. I am simply saying that my definition of right and wrong is of no consequence to you because if I have to make it up like you suggest Steve than its not from a creator and therefore meaningless.
As for Osama Bin Laden. If he got his 72 virgins I am sure that hasn’t turned out as he wished I have a hard enough time with 1 wife I think 72 would be a challenge most would not be able to meet. Thank god I am not the creator who has to decide peoples destiny.
God encouraged, provoked and motivated everyone, everyone on 9/11.
His takeaway…
I’m here. Pay attention!
My belief is that we are all God’s children and that he loves us all. Because he loved us so much he sent us to earth to learn and to grow. (Much like our parents giving us opportunities to learn) In order for us to do that, we were given the gift of making choices. It also meant there was going to be opposition, or we couldn’t learn. Of course this allows people to make evil choices that can harm others and cause disappointment, sadness and destruction, if that is the choice they choose to make. It also allows us to do great things, and become helpful, loving and strong people. God allows things to happen, to allow us to use our agency. And sometimes that means big destructive events like 9/11. That doesn’t mean that little miracles didn’t happen or he isn’t there to comfort us, just that he has to allow people to use their agency. And we become what we choose. In the end however, I believe God will judge our actions, and we will be rewarded for the choices we made. And those who made the choice for good, will receive great things, while those who chose evil, will have to suffer, the guilt, pain, and torment, for their bad choices. God loves us all the same, and one of the biggest tragedies is that with the ability to choose there are many who use that power for evil making it hard for everyone else. Do you go to school planning to fail? And yet many do fail in the choices the make. That is why it is so important to do what we came to earth for and learn and grow and use our power of choice for good. And just realize that things are going to happen because of agency, and there will be struggles & opposition, because we need to become the best we can. You don’t build muscle with out opposition. You also don’t grow without opposition. Tragedy, trials, sadness, and hardship are necessary for us to become stronger. And as for God..I’ll let him be the judge of good and evil, and give out the punishments and rewards, because he knows his Children. And that is what I believe.
To answer the question of where was God when all of this mayhem has happened to humanity; I would have to say: He is still sitting on His throne in power, glory and love!
That being said, It can be in truth that God does not interfere with mans free will, and will not break His own Laws that were established before the foundations of the world ,and the life we experience and as we know in the carnality of things.
Life is spiritual and flesh, or better said, unseen and seen. Unfortunately many
people are influenced by the lesser of the spiritual side of life and are deceived through the conscience part of the mind instead of using the spiritual or subconscious part of their mind, Where the truth an life actually dwells in most form or part. This is not to say that the whole body is not a living sentient existence.
What I mean is to say is: logical thinking is fallible (which should only be used for the carnality of life: protection,action,physical sustenance and so forth) and cannot grasp the eternal! Critical thinking on the other hand can be put into the category of (looking at life through your spiritual set of eyes and understanding).
Only the Spirit can comprehend truth and discern the difference between good and evil. And we all have this capability. This cannot be denied. We all know the difference between good and evil, it’s just our willingness to accept or deny this as truth.
Through our continued rebellion of truth we have attracted a just punishment, or trial in life. Cause and effect is another established Law that cannot be changed.
Or maybe better stated: Lesson continues, till lesson learned.
This life process that we must encounter and live, gives us the opportunity to choose eternal life, or be cast asunder into total darkness and be lost forever.
The question about bin-laden is simply: he and his spirit will be no more through his choice to do evil, and be evil .He let the forces of darkness, which are the lesser of the spiritual, control the greater. Many let the deceptions of the darkness control their light. Seemingly the fleshly desires are not understood by most, because the shallowness of personal “ego enjoyment” makes them feel so much better! Ego has a way of letting evil enjoy itself in your being.
This is where sin started; in the free will, and this is where it will end. God’s initial plan for a free being, to freely love, could only be established through a free will.
The picture is so much bigger than we can comprehend on why God allows such things to happen. And as the vail of deception has taken hold and blinded man from truth, it makes it harder to see God as he really is.
Maybe a better question to ask, may be: Are we ready to see why God lets these things happen, and can we truly accept His Virtue and Countenance?
My answer to this question would be: No
Yet through faith, does it really matter why we should understand Gods way of doing things? He is God and can do whatever He wants, plain and simple!
I choose to remain silent. There are plenty of Jobs around. Read above and below.
Agh! Hit the wrong button when I wasn’t through!
To finish what I was leading up to, I don’t think the right question for initiating the debate is “Where was God,” during all these events. There’s no way to prove to anyone besides yourself what God is, where He is, what He is thinking, and so forth. If He is God, and we have to walk by faith (which by the way is a topic for another day I would love to expound on), then it may be reasonable to assume that God was doing on that day what He has done since the beginning of time–staying out of the way and allowing all mankind to exercise free agency. If we have to walk by faith, then it is also reasonable to assume this whole mortality of ours is some kind of test. Dr. Victor Frankl talks about what was REAL in the things he experienced and witnessed in the concentration camps. He, nor I, nor anyone else can enter a debate about things beyond our mortal senses and prove them, any more than you can prove to us that you have dreams, or what you know the taste of salt is like–we have to walk by faith and take your word for it. It has to be experienced. Which means that if people have experienced events proving to themselves the existence of a deity, an afterlife, or other spiritual events, there is no one with world class thinking ability that can disprove it.
Okay, now I’m done.
See ya Wednesday!
Steve, my family evacuted from the New Orleans area during Hurricane Katrina. I spent the night praying for our home, a pet we had left behind (thinking we were just leaving overnight), and my daughter’s treasured new swingset in the back yard (I know, it sounds superficial, but it meant the world to HER), and facing the cold reality that NO ONE on this planet could help me. That is an empty, desperate feeling. On that realization, I turned to God and, in my heart and soul, felt His arms wrap around me. I asked his angels to protect our home and to carry our family through whatever might happen. He gave me peace to face what the new day would bring.
The new day brought the unimaginable destruction of the levees breaking and we saw our neighborhood on national news under several feet of water. We wept and mourned for our neighbors and, we were certain, ourselves, at our loss. But I was at peace. Weeks later, my husband and father were able to return to our neighborhood, navigated the fallen trees and rotting garbage, to find our home, our pet, and my daughter’s swingset still standing and dry! Every big tree in and around our home had fallen, but had just missed our home and the swingset. In my heart of hearts, I know this miracle was a direct gift of love from my Father in Heaven, the only One who could help us in that time, and we rejoiced, in awe at His mercy, and gave thanks for His protection!
Why did He help us and not others who prayed and were at least as deserving if not more? I don’t know. I accept that I can’t know His mind – my mind is filled to capacity figuring out my own life! But I do believe that He brings good out of our trials and will give us only the best when we move forward in love and faith.
You speak of living in love and abundance instead of fear and scarcity, and I think that is the key to all these questions. I believe that God is pure Love, and that when we operate in love we approach Him and Truth. Litmus test: were the 9/11 terrorists operating from Love or Hate? Fear and Hate are in direct opposition to God, so we can’t do His will from those motives. So Love is the answer. 🙂
Peace.
Hey Steve,
As my wife says, you sure like to stir controversy, don’t you! Ha, ha!
Looking forward to being with you next Wednesday.
To comment on personal beliefs about God, where he is or was, or the existence of Him altogether or even an after life is to enter the realm of sounding dogmatic. As you teach in 177 Secrets the world class separates truth from fact. Truth is subjective. Well, so are the experiences the masses have had subjectively that prove to each individual that there is something in existence beyond the proof of our own five senses, or they would not likely act upon it. Einstein believed in God, and felt that through his calculations that there was enough evidence to substantiate the existence of a supreme being. Dr. Raymond Moody studied the after life testimonials of those who experienced afterlife experiences then returned, as it were, presenting compelling testimony that even most in the medical community would agree that there is sufficient witness that the next realm exists. Both of these individuals are critical thinkers.
The notion held by some that God is involved in every event, every disaster, every victory is common among many religious believers. There is also another idea, held by those who are deists, if I am not mistaken, that God does not actually interfere in anything that happens on earth. He is the Creator and set the rules of the game, so to speak, He defined how nature operates. After that he sits back and watches.
I wince when I hear that God created Katrina to strike New Orleans because the city was sinful. That is just using one’s religion to be cruel. I also have to chuckle when athletes claim they were victorious because of what God did for them. That could be either giving them courage or perhaps even taking sides in the game. That is just silly.
For those familiar with the Bible, in the Old Testament, we learn that the Israelites are God’s chosen people. Then in the New Testament, Jesus defends a sinful woman about to be stoned and asks the crowd, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
As to what happened on 9/11, I do not think that God was anywhere other than where he is always is. He is a spiritual force, not a natural force. Although He did create the laws of nature. He does not make something happen or stop something from happening other than as I just stated. We do that. We can call on God for spiritual assistance. We can read what he says about how to live life. Read Proverbs for that. But we cannot treat Him as if he functions on our level.
Steve, I respectfully submit that God was where He always is during these difficult times; He was where He always has been…and the answer IS in the Scriptures my friend. 🙂 He is with us as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. His Word promises that He will never leave us or forsake us. We are His.
He is now, always has been, and always will be. Our finite minds are not created to understand Him…but one day we might. That is what FAITH is for…
The more appropriate question to ask may be…WHY does He let terrible things happen to His creation…His people? Many people ask that when bad things happen to a person or a whole group of people. I’ve often asked it myself looking back on the tragedy, pain, and abuse of my childhood. Why? Clear as anything I often hear the response…Why not? As for the recent tragedies you mentioned, there again…the answer is in the Scriptures. 🙂
When we turn from Him, from His will, from His laws for us, He removes His hands of protection from our land and from His people. Period.
As for the other man you mentioned who caused so much evil in this world…where is he now? It could be surmised that by the way he lived his life he is most-likely spending eternity in the lake of burning fire. However, who am I to stand in final judgment?
We will ALL stand before Christ and be judged no matter if we believe or not. All of us. There will be no excuses. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord and we will all have to answer for the good and bad we have done in this life.
That, for what it’s worth, is what I believe. That is what God’s Word tells me. Some may agree, some may not, but that’s between you and God. 😉
Steve, thank you for the opportunity to answer your questions.
I’m guessing his body is part of the ocean now in some physical form (as in dust?).
I do not know where his soul is. I do not know if Christianity was explained to him and that if he rejected it.
Don’t we all leave “the land of the dying” and go to the “land of the living” if we are a beliver in Jesus Christ? Doesn’t the Bible say that those who have heard God’s word (the chosen) and proclaim Jesus as their Lord & Savior will spend eternity with God? This is where I want to be.
Where was God on 9/11? This something I do not know either. I do know that when I am in pain (such as losing all my benefits at the construction co.where I’m still working), that I couldn’t go to church. It was not a comforting place to be. I could not afford to help family members and make a donation to church. I was embarrassed, angry and hurt…. there are still contractors who still have not been paid a dime in over 2 years by the company for their services. I am angry and hurt for them, their families and their employees. I am hurt that I have to stay in this muck of a company until I can find a job that does not take me backwards in my goals. I am sympathetic for how difficult this time must be for the boss and his family even though they made financial mistakes. I will stay mentally tough though! I will try not to be a negative Christian!
So, does God put us in pain so that we can feel the pain of others?
Pain is a part of living……I hope that we’ll find the BASIC answer someday when we meet our Christian Lord.
Steve,
We as humans can only speculate where Osama Bin Laden is. God is everywhere and in everything. How that plays together is often beyond the meager ability of the human brain. Another interesting question might be where is God in Steve’s life? I hope and pray that He is very present and you feel him drawing you closer to him even now.
Warmest regards,
Great Question Steve. GOD ‘is’ in the same ‘place’ when you asked this question.
…the power of human choice is can love…and harm.
I abandoned the mythic idea of God as a person “out there” years ago, since the application of critical thinking to the issue showed a complete lack of evidence. There is convincing evidence for consciousness as a universal and formative power in the universe, however. The Institute for Noetic Sciences, formed by astronaut Edgar Mitchell, has piles of published and peer reviewed research on this. Coming from that point of view, each of us is an individual expression of that consciousness and we get to express it in our own way and deal with the consequences for ourselves and others. You could see Earth as the location of one small experiment in consciousness-raising, and we will see if we can rise to the level of planetary consciousness before our exploding population and misuse of technology destroy us. As far as Katrina is concerned, if you build a city below sea level on the hurricane coast, you’re just asking for it. Especially if you destroy the barrier islands. Our problems are not caused by the presence or absence of a personal God, but many of them are caused by people who believe in a personal God. In the USA progress on many critical social and environmental issues is blocked by people who believe that it’s a waste of time and money because “Jesus is coming back soon.” Good luck with that.
It is probably impossible for me to say anything totally original, because as much as I aim to be a critical thinker, I still have not constructed my own philosophy from nothing, or totally from scratch; others have offered their thoughts and perspectives and I have done my best to evaluate those views, modifying them and gradually developing a viewpoint which seems to best account for what I experience and observe. That viewpoint, of course, is always open to being improved by new experience, evidence, suggestions, or insights. Having said that I will try to say what I think about God, Bin Laden, and God’s presence during events such as 9/11.
It seems to me that the world is glorious not only in its immediate physical splendor which we can see and experience, but also in the way it fits together, functioning in an interdependent way. An observant and thinking person in ancient times, with no special instrument, could see that the universe is awesome and provokes wonder. And the more we dig into it, the greater the splendor and mystery. The world is not less wonderful when Mendeleev identifies the Periodic Table, or when we look through telescope or microscope. If anything it is more wonderful.
Nor does the mystery end with the physical world outside us. If we look at our experience, our ability to think, our feelings–especially our affections–experience is astounding. That each of us is HERE, a conscious thinking and loving being–is awesome. To be a Person that I have trouble not calling a “miracle.” The presence of Other Persons raises the mystery of Being exponentially.
My simplest way of understanding this huge mystery is to see it as the creation of a Creator. I would call this an application of Occam’s Razor–but I don’t want to be accused of quoting. That the world exists, and that the world is the kind of place that produces not only my self but the life and selves of countless other species and people leads me to believe that Creation implies a Creator and that being and seeing Persons leads me to explain myself and other persons as “copies” of the Creator who is a person (I often think I am a very POOR copy of a real person, and one of my aims in life is to grow as a responsible and thinking and loving being–or like Pinocchio, to become “a real live boy”). In short, I believe in God.
So where does all the bad stuff come from. Bad stuff comes from nature outside us. It also comes from inside us: impulsiveness, the desire for immediate gratification at the expense of the welfare of ourselves and others, the irrational assumption that my interests are more important than those of others, being prone to rationalize what I want, what I fear, and to ignore reality. The classic list of Pride, Greed, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, and Sloth (laziness) kinda sums it up. 9/11 seems to have been the result of human waywardness. The destruction of Katrina at first looks like the result of nature. But it is hard to separate the two: Katrina would not have been as destructive if human laziness and stubbornness and corruption had not provided New Orleans with inadequate preparation. Or maybe the residents of New Orleans need to be tough minded enough to ask if living below sea level is really a workable plan for a city.
Whatever the details, it is clear to me that we humans are currently made so that it is hard for us to be in harmony with reality. We have to really work to keep our internal “judge” and our internal “cheerleader salesman” in harmony. Much of the time we fail. Maybe we need to evolve. Maybe we are just cussedly banging our heads against the wall. One response would be to blame God for making us this way. Some do. They might argue that if God is real and God is as smart and powerful as He is cracked up to be, then He could have made us so that we are automatically smart, strong, mentally tough, emotionally tender, and already completely able to relate to the world effectively and to other people with justice and love.
It seems just as likely to me that developing into that responsible, tough-minded, tender-hearted, just and loving person is what I am here to do. If there is, as I believe, a God who created us, maybe He meant for each of us to participate in becoming the Person we could be and fulfilling the potential He created in us. And maybe that is better than just being already perfected “right out of the box.”
I cannot prove or disprove either alternative, so I choose for the time being the belief that is most productive. I will get more out of life and out of me by believing that my struggles are part of a good plan than I will by shaking my metaphorical fist at a hypothetical klutzy deity. So I will go with that one.
If I did not seek to discipline my emotions and behavior I will quickly go all to hell–metaphorically speaking. I will be poor. I will have crappy relationships. I will get fat and sick. I will become a whining and self-pitying creep no one–including me– wants to be around. Being that person is hellish. I suspect Osama bin Laden lived a hellish internal life. He made life hell for thousands of people. If his soul survived physical death, then I would not be surprised if he were in a permanent kind of hell. It would hardly be unjust after he worked so hard to become the person he was. But I stress that I don’t know about his current residence. It just seems to me that many of us who have caused far less objective evil than bin Laden seem to be making our inner lives hellish, and so I don’t find the prospect of hell in the afterlife that dubious. Many of us are making ourselves into hellish people; maybe being that way forever is what “hell” is all about.
Where is God when the Bad Stuff comes down, when the Twin Towers are falling in flames? I believe he is with all the people he created, especially with the victims. Yes, also with the perpetrators who are misusing their gifts and abilities. But especially with those who suffer. If, as I am betting, God thinks that the possible rewards of having a world with people free to make good or bad choices is worth even the horrors of 9/11 or Auschwitz, then it would seem inconsistent for God to “duck out” of the cost and risk involved in that plan. If He thinks the end result is worth the pain, then it make sense He would be right here with us when the sky is literally falling on us. If God makes small things as well as big things like Quasars and galaxies, then He can be with each of us in those moments of terror, suffering along with us. I believe He is willing to Pay the Price.
Right on Mark!! I can’t say it any better than you did.
I would add, that to have an opinion separate from that given in the Bible, when I profess to love and follow Jesus Christ, would to be a hypocrite, which I strive not to be.
God is with us through all of the events of our lives, both good and bad. His Holy Spirit guides us (if we will listen) and He gives us the grace required to go through.
I don’t see this as a critical thinking question. The Christians will say he is in hell, the atheists will say rotting at the bottom of the ocean or eaten by a shark and I’m not certain what the Muslims will say. If what I have heard on TV is correct, then I suppose he will be in heaven with 70 virgins. However, none of these responses require critical thinking, just a previously selected decision, or perhaps an up-bringing.
I hope that you are not going the way of the majority of the world, using the shock factor to garner discussions on your blog merely to create a following of people that wonder what you might do next. I had thought you were about helping people to learn to think more deeply, consider things from a different perspective.
We shall see. God Bless You
God was watching and crying with us. Like a perfect parent, that force of the universe lets us behave as we will, paying a spiritual price for our misadventures and cruelty to one another, learning, we hope, as we go. If God intervened, we would be like the deer or the bear, totally run by god-given instinct. We’ve been given the opportunity to think and feel, and with it, the responsibility to live according to spiritual principles that lead us to the right path.
There is not an air tight argument for why the Christian God would allow suffering. Christians can take comfort however in knowing that our God, Jesus, also suffered. He is a god who truly understands our pain and grief. Therefore those who mourn can find comfort.
Whether you die peacefully in your sleep or get crushed by a 100 foot tidal wave you are dead. Asking God to intervene in the dramatic events of life but to keep his hands in his pockets during peaceful deaths seems silly. Everyone who was ever mysteriously healed or miraculously saved from a horrible event is going to die or is already dead.
Your place in eternity is not based on how you died, but on how you lived and the simple decision of who you place your faith in. And unfortunately there is only one way…as illogical as that may seem.
There are forces in our world that are beyond the scope of my measly human comprehension. But God, for the most part, is just a concept put forth by religious leaders since the beginning to control the rest of us.
If you have the personal experience of a connection to a form of “God”, it most likely can’t be put into words.that would allow others to share your exact same experience.
When I drive to the gym with my workout partner we always pass a church. He blesses (makes the sign of the cross) himself every time we pass the front door.
Besides strengthening the neuromuscuklar connection and reflexes of his right hand, I asked him why he was motivated to do that? After some probing discussion it turns out he’s motivated by fear; as in “please don’t give me another crap sandwhich to eat today Lord”.
God doesn’t live in that building and if a (person) has a (person)al connection to God then that’s where God always is when anything, whether considered good or bad, happens anywhere in the Universe.
Namaste and Be Well,
Jaroslav
Osama Bin Laden is in Hell, unless he had an epiphany right before his death and accepted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.
Only good and perfect gifts come from God, so the person responsible for ANY devastating events is Satan.
He uses his greatest weapon, deception, to make people believe that God is responsible for Natural Events. An example of this deception is the Insurance Term “An Act of God”.
God was there in all of these events to take dead believers home to the Incredible Afterlife he has prepared for us in Heaven. He comforted the believing Survivors and their families.
Unfortunately, the ones who were not believers, even if they were ‘Good People’ went to Hell.
To me, this is the Ultimate in Critical Thinking. I live by faith, not by sight. This is not an emotional response, but a very logical one.
Life is very black and white. ‘Educated’ people have complicated it.
An interesting question Steve. The previous posts all state their conclusions by relying on “belief.” That does not sound like critical thinking to me. If I believe the earth is flat, using critical thinking, the scientific facts we have, would have to lead me to reject my “belief” as incorrect.
I think, if critical thinking is to be involved, the first question is is there a God at all? Critical thinking may not get us to an answer because we don’t have any good objective facts to base an opinion on. If one concludes there is no God, then critical thinking tells us “it” (being God) was not there at these disasters.
If your critical thinking concludes there is a God, then a good question is what is the nature of this “God.” While many religions have gods the judeo-christian-islamic traditions are the ones who introduced the “one” god dualistic approach which says God is seperate from us and is paying attention to what we do. If that is the case it becomes difficult to reconcile your basic question – where was God during these disasters? He/She lets innocents be killed in war, storm, fire and flood. Maybe our conception of the God watching over us and judging us is not correct. If that is what is going on God is one weird dude/gal. From a critical thinking standpoint it does logically follow that a good god would let this happen.
Critical thinking will tell you that a lot of people over many years have made lots of money from peddeling this version of God and the need for someone to tell you how to talk to God. That is what many religions are all about. Lots of people have died because of one side or the other bele\ieved they were just and those other non-believers deserved death. This goes on today with the wars in the MidEast.
I think this disconnect between the Western/Islamic version of a good guy in the sky paying attention to what is going on and innocents slaughtered by the same good guy in the sky might lead to the conclusion this God cannot be what people say he is. I know there is quite a bit of writing out there to explain this paradox but, if you read it, it will require faith to “believe” that he really is a good god. Faith is a belief in something that is not able to be proven or does not make logical sense. Faith and belief are not critical thinking items.
A logical conclusion would be that God is not as described by western and islamic religion. Maybe we need another definition of God. That may be the real crux of the problem with your question. When you say God, everyone has a version of what that word means but, maybe God is not a guy in the sky watching over us but something else altogether. Perhaps the “real” god does not have human qualities but is merely a force in existance.
Buddha taught that there is human suffering. That takes care of a lot of territory with war, floods, famine and bad things happening to good people. Buddha did not teach God created the universe but rather there is universal law that runs through everything. If you live according to this law then you can escape suffering. Perhaps a universal force is a better definition of “god” than the guy in the sky. It also allows that force to be within us and therefore, we are part of the so called “god.”
It can come down to your definition of God. If you believe in the dualistic “good” God that is separate from you, explaining where he/she/it was during the mass deaths is tough.
Belief in a non-dualistic force inherent in all of us seems to make more sense from a critical thinking standpoint because you don’t have the dichotomy of a just God slaughtering innocents. If you subscribe to that definition the force was right there, it does not intervene to attach definitions to the suffering.
The primary critical thinking problems here are first, what your “belief” is. This cannot be objectively proven so it does not provide objective fact to begin analysis from. Secondly, the definition of God you use, may or may not be correct, which colors the results of your thinking.
There is a third problem to this question. Perhaps God is so complicated, so different from us humans, that we cannot really get an objectively correct definition of what God is that we can understand. For my money, I’l go with universal force, but that’s just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Where was Osama’s God……I think there is one God and that one God allows everyone to choose his/her own religious path to God. I come to this conclusion because I believe that God is not a christian, not a Muslim not any religion that exists in the world but is pure love trying to show human beings that all things must be done through love.
I have heard many times Christians saying …..you can’t go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus……I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh…. only christians get into heaven…..I have heard Muslims saying…..there is one God and Mohamed is his prophet….and only Muslims get into heaven…..
Having lived in a multicultural country for some 37 years and mingled and worked alongside different cultural thinkers and equally with their different religious observances I am off the opinion that all religions teach love, giving, honestly, good works, self sacrifice all the good things. Its we humans who choose to make it otherwise….we have the final choice ……
So where is God when tragedy and slaughtering happens …..God is love and is in every human beings minds and hearts and put their by the various religious paths in the world. God gave us the right to choose between right and wrong, we can only blame ourselves for our choices. Volcanoes….natural disasters is the way of the world completely out of our control and every religious book shows us the last days will have natural disaster after natural disaster thats how God has planned the worlds ending, we don’t live in this world forever things in this world die and so does the world eventually.
Osama had a choice to do good or evil it has nothing to do with his religion because all religions teach goodness, his choice does not reflect his religious teachings. Gods has given us a path of peace and love we must look at the choices we humans make to include these in our path through life.
Oops… yes, I confess. I jumped the gun and discovered an outside response that I felt expressed best my ideas on the topic, and posted it above.
And THEN I watched your video!
My apologies for adding comments from an outside source when as it turns out, you didn’t want that… The essayist I still say addressed the topic in a way that really nailed it. 🙂 Could I have? Not known.
My best response comes inspired by a New Thought/Transcendental oriented website that is a continuing collection of essays on universally interesting questions. These essays offer opinions and ideas that are Christian and practical, intellectual and spiritual, metaphysical and faith filled.
From essay # 44 at http://www.darkhorsepress.com/archives-horsesmouth.html
“It won’t help to blame God for it, or other people, or the government, or Mother Nature. We did it, and we are doing it, and whatever happens next will be our choice and our doing too. We are not helpless. We have great power, each one of us. Would you be willing to go on a “violence-diet?” Just change your intake, change your thinking, and see how quickly your life starts changing to reflect it.
What we have not realized, and must begin to realize, is that our thoughts and beliefs are actually more powerful than our actions, because it is thought, belief, and emotion that drive all our actions, and influence the actions of nature on earth. Our thoughts are more powerful than we can yet understand.
We are not Victims of Life or fate or luck. Not one of us. God does not “let bad things happen.” God lets all things happen, just as we choose. As we ask, we receive, even if we did not realize we were asking. Realize now. We can change our world profoundly by changing the thoughts we choose and give harbor to in our minds and in our everyday lives.
We have been called the Children of God. Just as every child must grow and learn and eventually become a responsible adult, this is true of Spirit too, and Spirit is the real core and the greatest power of our Being. The biggest challenge of our world today is one that contains within it all the rest: It is time for us, each one of us, to take responsibility for what we are holding in our hearts and minds, and so creating in our lives and our world, and now venturing out to create in our universe.”
I agree with everything that Kelly Lee said and could not have said it better myself. I am a three time cancer survivor, and if it were not for my belief in God, I would have taken a much different approach to my situation. Instead of wondering where God was during my diagnosis, and asking “why me,” etc., I wondered instead what He was trying to teach me. It was my first diagnosis that lead me to become a speaker. I always wanted it, but I needed a subject. He gave me a subject by giving me the strength to survive, and the gift to encourage others as they battle through their own journey. My second and third battles made me a better, more compassionate, speaker.
As Kelly Lee implied, He doesn’t promise that we will have perfect lives on earth. In fact, He is more concerned with our heavenly lives. What we believe while we are here on earth will play a major role in how we experience eternity.
I know some will disagree because they don’t know, or they don’t believe, but what if the Bible is right? I’m not willing to risk it. God was there on 9/11. He knew it would happen before it did, and He cried with us. I’m sure of it.
God is a term given to anything mankind does that he cannot explain. Basically God is a manifestation of each person, a secondary human spirit. You don’t ‘lean on God’! You lean on yourself and others.
Doesn’t matter if the person is good or bad. The actions of one or many is only judged according to and in the context of the culture and predisposition of the group they belong to, or aspire to belong to. Therefore humanity can belong to any religious/spiritual/scientific/cult or just a village or town or book club/face-book/twitter etc, etc. If the group are ok with the concept of behaviour or natural event and feel it is ok within the workings (belief system) of that particular group then it is acceptable. e.g its ok that Bin Laden was shot and killed because that particular faith believe he is now in a beautiful place because of all the things he did! Within other faiths ‘Acts of God’ (Tsunami) have somehow happened for a reason and that is also ok. In groups outside faith like face-book it’s ok to tell the world anything you like about another and say what you like even if that is hurtful. It really has nothing to do with “Where was God?”! It has everything to do with blaming and wanting answers rather than accepting and understanding all that confronts us. Revenge hate prejudice jealousy racism are all because nobody can accept. So in the end they ask, “Where was God”? I find the whole thing ridiculously frustrating and strange.
My beliefs are that the scriptures of the Bible are inerrant truth, so to give you an opinion from my own fallible reasoning ability would be giving you an answer I don’t really believe.
IF Osama Bin Laden did not believe in Christ as his personal savior, he will spend eternity in hell. On the great big IF he did believe in Christ before he died, he will spend eternity in heaven. Christ equated hatred with murder, and lust with fornication. So He can forgive murder as He does hatred, and fleshly sins as He does mental attitude sins.
When 9/11 happened, when the Oklahoma City bombing occurred, God was there as He is always everywhere. He was comforting me as I watched the footage in horror and fear, and at the same time He was comforting the dying and injured. He was giving strength to the rescue personnel, and preparing those who had lost loved ones to encounter such a horrible situation. He was giving courage to airplane passengers, flight attendants, and pilots who decided that just because they were going to die didn’t mean many, many more on the ground had to.
When Katrina happened, the tsunamis in Japan, the earthquakes, drought, and during the California wildfire my uncle was killed in in July 2008, God was, again comforting and strengthening.
The existence of God does not guarantee we will not have sorrows in this life. In fact, He has given us free will and when we are bound and determined to make our own misery, He lets us. When we are affected by others’ awful decisions, He prepares special heavenly rewards even as He strengthens us beyond what we thought we could ever endure. When natural disasters strike…well, it’s part of the earth’s cycle, a cycle God set in motion eons ago to keep the earth in balance. Suffering from natural disaster is part of living in an imperfect world; suffering from the bad decisions of others is part of living with imperfect people; and making our own misery is part of living with our own imperfections.
But if God changed those things, He would be denying us, or someone else, free will. If He stopped the horrible ice storms that we suffered through the last two years, who knows how weather might have been affected elsewhere.
I’m grateful I can lean on God and believe that He knows better than I do, better than any human being on earth can possibly know.
I don’t begrudge others their free will rights to believe, or not believe, or not know whether to believe, as they will – and if they find comfort in it, who am I to complain. But belief and trust in an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God is what keeps me going from day to day.
I also believe, Steve, that God has given you a real gift of inspiring, teaching and encouraging. I’m so glad He did!
It’s a great question, Steve. As an agnostic leading towards atheist – I don’t really believe God exists. Hence he/she was not around that day or even any other day (even assuming that preventing disasters is the kind of thing God likes to do).
If I was a believer, I guess I have several options that I can think of. God was around but chose not to intervene, God couldn’t intervene or 9/11 was the result of their intervention.
If God was around but didn’t intervene, why? There are all kinds of possible reasons. Perhaps to teach us a lesson, perhaps it’s not the kind of thing God gets involved in (being a human centric thing), perhaps a test and countless other possible reasons.
If God couldn’t intervene, perhaps they have limits. Everything from most texts suggests not – but I guess we only have God’s word on that.
If God was around and 9/11 was the result of their intervention. Perhaps it was to prevent something worse, a test or to encourage something better. Or perhaps for some other reason unknown to us.
God was there during each of these disasters. He is always there during the good times and the bad times. Just because bad things happen on earth does not mean that he leaves us nor does it mean He will stop things from happening.
Steve, you ask a question like this knowing there will be a thousand different perspectives. You said not to quote scripture or any book, wanting our own opinion, but is that opinion not based on one’s own learning from reading books and experiences in life? if you believe in God, then you must believe also in Heaven, Hell, the devil, and the judgement that will sort out what reward or punishment one will incur for their deeds chosen in this life. What I have learned then, based on study and so forth, is that God is involved in all aspects of our lives. As a result, God is in control beyond our understanding on some level that will make sense in the end, that we can only assume through our faith is just and true, in that God is infallible, ever present, all-knowing, and all-powerful. There is the struggle we all have, since the dawn of time, to use our agency for good or evil, and such choices will merit what reward or punishment is received. What is done in ignorance, is known and accounted for in a just and true way, such that all have equal chance to do what is required to merit what reward is desired. Whatever motivates us to act, based on whatever belief system we honestly pursue, even such that we believe that which to be in error to be right, will all be taken into account. In the end, it is about Love. We do not understand it all now, but we can pursue a course in honor, and discipline, and service that can secure a happiness beyond this life’s mortal plane, in the hope of a bright reward. We all have a role to play. We can either live to act, or live to be acted upon. There is a universal truth, regardless of religion that applies equally to all, and there will be one day, when the whole human family will see eye to eye, and understand plainly that universal truth. Truth cuts its own way, independent of what an individual believes. Believing in God, one then necessarily must acknowledge the existence of the devil, that is in opposition to God, and has power as such to harden the hearts of the human family, to war, and vice, and wreak havoc among those that would serve God. Just as there is darkness, and light, direct opposites of each other, one must recognize good and evil as such opposites as well. It is about the purpose then of our existence, why we are here. Born into this struggle for a reason. Blinded by selfish desires, unbelief, and evil influences, a person does the bidding of wickedness. If one seeks the truth, they will find it. Individual characteristics like integrity, honesty, virtue, charity, long-suffering, patience, self-control, perserverence all contribute to righteousness. So how do you answer your question about where Bin Laden is, or God? Does one make a judgement in trying to answer that question? We will see in the end. Right now, we live by faith.